It's hard to be nice to the volunteer moderators, even if it's "Be Nice to the Volunteer Moderators Month" when they get snarky like this. We typically have not had such topic-enforcement by the moderators mandating that the topic be adhered to so closely. Is this a new policy?

I posted the OSHA guidance, which is a good starting point if your organization hasn't thought about this.

You're right, and yet four people still died from asphyxiation in the same manner they would have in a legally defined confined space.

In my example they weren't actually inside an underground mine tunnel. They were in a small building with a deep sump, which is not actually that different from a pit with a sump and drain pipe in a shop building.

As for practices, we never work alone when entering a confined space and place a large fan on top of the stack or in the smokebox when doing work inside the firebox. If someone must enter the boiler through the dome multiple washout plugs will be removed and the fan is placed on top of the open dome once the worker has entered.

We used to end up doing a lot of work at height from ladders, though our sets of portable wheeled stairs were and are used as much as possible. We have since received a large and very generous donation of aluminum scaffold from a local company, which is now used for any work at height.

If you read the article, the situation was a small shed with a pit in the floor. People who entered the shed could breath normally, when they climbed down into the pit they were overcome and passed out. Sounds like a classic confined space to me.

Aside from breathing problems, we need to be very aware of the condition of power tools and extension cords, especially that the tool is truly grounded. I remember reading years ago of a man with a portable light in a boiler, IIRC. The light was ungrounded. The man, on the other hand was well grounded by the steel he was laying on, and when he grabbed the light to move it, received a shock of sufficient strength to paralyze him. Luckily someone checked on him within just a couple of minutes, or he likely would have gone into cardiac arrest.

Because of this industry has mostly moved away from items requiring 120 volt power for use in confined spaces whenever possible. If I were in charge of a museum's policies, and I'm not, I would insist on cordless and pneumatic tools only.

When I worked at Texas State RR, we almost had somebody croak when he entered the water section of a locomotive tender. It seems that the water treatment we were using included an oxygen scavenger, which continued to work even when the tank was dry. After that, we had a breathing hose for anybody who had to go in there.

We were probably doing it wrong...

We have two tank cars. Members are forbidden to even crack the hatches. Coming out of the oil patch, this is what I know:
1. No entry without checking and monitoring with an LEL meter.
2. No entry without checking and monitoring with O2 meter.
3. No entry without adequate forced air changes or fresh air equipment.
4. No entry without wearing a harness and safety line. Buddy system applies here.

If there’s a potential for explosive vapors to accumulate where work is to be performed, non-sparking tools must be used. That will limit you to pneumatics for power tools unless you can maintain adequate air changes with LEL and O2 monitors. You have to have a designated fire watch that has no other responsibilities than your safety.

Poisonous vapors are another ball of wax but are handled much the same way as explosive environments.

When in doubt about CES, consult OSHA regs and follow them so you and others can go home for dinner at the end of the day.

I did the OSHA 30 some years ago and one of the most eye opening parts was the confined space training.

The big thing that should be a warning to all that's kind of hard to wrap your head around is if you come across someone whose succumbed to a confined space don't go in to help! Toss an air hose or get a big fan or something but don't go in. Our instructor told us that it isn't uncommon for confined spaces to claim multiple individuals when one guy falls victim and his friends/coworkers rush in to pull a fallen friend or loved one to safety. Instructor said farm manure pits are known to claim whole families when one member falls down and emotional relatives rush in to help!

I would think the worst place for confined spaces on a railroad would be the water space in a tender where the rust rust process steals the oxygen out of the air.

I would think a firebox would be less of an issue diese to the design being setup to naturally draft. I never gave it much thought when voulenteering rolling in boiler tubes with large air motors. Now that I think of it I wonder if it is safe with air tools to use their CFM ratings as part of your air change calculations.

Many years ago I had a discussion with an OSHA man about confined space and after the relevant boiler issues he ask if we had a turntable, because entering the pit of an electrically controlled machine like a turntable, or a drop table, fell under confined space and not just lock out tag out.

With all due respect, I would say that the oil space on a tender would be far worse than the water space.

I might also offer the suggestion that if you're working inside a firebox, you hook up an air compressor to the firing manifold or blower line, then crank the blower open wide.

In my "assigned reading" for today, I got to read how a young Bureau of Public Roads employee working in Yellowstone National Park in 1939, succumbed to asphyxiation while attempting to rescue a fellow employee from a test pit dug to explore the surface geology for a planned road. The other employee had passed out, but ultimately survived.

Yellowstone, occupying what is still considered an active volcanic caldera, is susceptible to seepage of sulfur dioxide and carbon dioxide at toxic concentrations. There are now caverns in Yellowstone closed as a result.

The next chapter was about lightning strikes at Yellowstone...............

Why would a responsible manager do that?

Admittedly, I would probably roll my eyes at that one too. But I don't ever think it a bad thing or even a waste of time to cover a variety of safety topics with volunteers or employees, even if they might not pertain to the job at hand. You never know what they run into "that one time" on the job or elsewhere, that some of that information may save life, limb, or injury. There are plenty of areas that may not legally meet the definition of "confined space" that can pose some of the same hazards, and would be prudent and wise to take precautions with, even if it's not required.

I only have two words to add to this thread, HYDROGEN SULFIDE.

Because some order came out, company-wide, to go over the entire "confined spaces" protocol that morning at every location the company had, nationwide, that morning, including outlining the applicable spaces at their facility. It was possibly a reaction to an incident or near-fatality or fatality somewhere else, in the company or industry--we never found out for sure. And the order didn't exempt any facility without "confined spaces" such as the warehouse/shipping facility we were in.

You gonna go and tell the company executives that their order is BS, in the case of your specific facility?
No. When the order "JUMP!" comes, your only question is "How high?"

The railroad version of this:
"We've been ordered to inspect all our EMD fuel injectors and fill out this report and send it back; we've been allocated an hour per loco."
"But we're all GE at this shop!"
"No exceptions!"
"........................ [shrugs, fills out paperwork, turns to leave] See ya tomorrow,Jim!"

It is important to be clear on the use of the space and its history prior to entry. There should a pre-job safety briefing to familiarize everyone with the characteristics of the space as well as an operational plan which will include a rescue plan. The space needs to be metered prior to entry to understand the environment within. Should there be a time/exposure limitation on the workers inside? What kind of PPE will be required? Is ventilation/air exchange necessary? Are breathing apparatus necessary? Will someone act as supervisor/safety observer to keep accountability of who is inside and the times at which they enter and exit? Do you have a secondary entry team outside of the space to perform a rescue should the need arise? If not, have you contacted the local fire department/ rescue squad and informed them that you are conducting confined space work? Do you need a permit? Do you have the equipment and resources you need? These are a few aspects of confined space work that I have encountered as a professional firefighter/EMT in a department that offers confined space rescue operations.