I have been saying for years that if a museum restored another Big Boy, and offered a engineer for a hour program it would probably pay off the restoration costs in less than a year. I am sure at $1,000 a hour or more every slot would be sold out ever day. I know I would give it a spin. Cab rides could be $300.00. If you could add a small freight train those with deep pockets could probably pony up $10,000.

Along the same lines if a DDA40X was restored and offered a engineer for a hour program it would also bring in the big money. Would be nice bragging rights for anyone who could claim they operated both the largest operation steam locomotive, as well as the largest operational diesel locomotive. I once did a engineer for a hour on the Pere Marquette, #1225. I can honestly say it was the best money I ever spent.

During the pandemic shut down, we did an outreach to try and generate and maintain interest in our operation virtually. We did a series of weekly Facebook live videos showcasing different aspects of our operation. 2 of those we turned into YouTube Videos.

Here is one on 4960. I hope it gets watched by many younger people to generate interest in steam.


https://youtu.be/CjPON48439Y

Eric Hadder
Grand Canyon Railway

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Too bad #4 is now departed.

Or, wait--would that have been renumbered to #1187?

The reality is that the number of people with both the money and the desire to pony up thousands of dollars to get "engineer for an hour" time on a UP Big Boy or any other "big" loco is stunningly small, and nowhere near as big as Tom F's wildly optimistic projections. You also have to factor in that you're consuming firing days, fuel, etc. that, totalled up, make this a horribly expensive proposition. Strasburg and other steam RRs don't keep another steam loco fired up just for cab rides--which they would if this were a feasible profit market.

Has anyone ever done a calculation as to how much it costs, TOTAL, per hour to keep Strasburg 90, a D&RGW Mikado, UP 4014, BM&R/Reading 425, etc. in steam? Factor in all the costs of rebuilds, fuel, lube, wash-outs, crew time to keep it hot, etc. divided by hours kept running? Obviously, the differences between Strasburg 475/90/89, kept largely hot for days on end, Youngstown Steel "flying ingot" 58, and GCRY 4960, now running maybe 15 times a year, are vast, but......

Prior to the pandemic, our annual "Touch A Train" events in eastern Maine drew upwards of 750 families, mostly with young children. Without steam, just climbing into a Diesel cab, riding the caboose, and getting a tour around the 470 Restoration shop yield $1,000+. Downeast Scenic RR did run special trains after the open house of 5 hours duration, and got good results. The point is, almost everyone of those families had somebody paying homage to "Thomas the Tank Engine". Like it or not, "Thomas" has fed us uncountable numbers of steam oriented youngsters and drawn whole families to the tracks.
Guest engineer of "Thomas" or ride the footplate would be a funding force with some cash generating power.
If anything, I'd say the enthusiasm for steam railroading has sprouted among the "sprouts".

ADM 4 raises and important point. Forgetting for the moment all the "direct" operating costs ( fuel, crew, lubricants, etc. ) it is VERY important to allocate and budget for both running maintenance and for the eventual FRA 1472 day overhaul.

We figure that on average near and medium term running maintenance will consume approx. $ 10/mile. So, if the engine were to run a one day 200 mile round trip we'd need to set aside $ 2,000 into the running maintenance account

Then, you need to add funding for the inevitable 1472 day drill. If you figure that the average steamer will run at most 50 days/year x15 years ( total of 750 days) and on average a 1472 day drill will cost $ 1,500,000 then each operating day must set aside $ 2,000 into the 1472 day reserve so the funds are there when the day comes.

Net of it all you need to set aside a total of $ 4,000/day PLUS " direct" operating costs to have the funds needed to keep the engine in service long term.

With the 611 able to generate approx. $ 22,000/day at Strasburg selling 3 different 30 minute experiences ( 22 total time slots x 3 different positions ( engineer,fireman,jump seat) she generates a nice net profit and makes it well worth doing.

Onward and upward. Ross Rowland

Nevada Northern offers locomotive engineer days when steam trains aren’t running. It seems to be worthwhile for them. (They do run them on days before and after the locomotive will be fired up for train rides).

It may indeed be time for a rethink.

The Illinois Railway Museum offered throttle time on Shay 5 this year, and the experiences sold out in weeks. Even the extra day that was added sold out quickly. For an engine as small as the Shay, and not running out on the mainline for the experiences, I think that bodes well. Plus, at IRM, there's a group of young volunteers (35 and younger, also my age bracket) really working with the "old heads" to keep the place going strong well into the future.

Christian Ellis
IRM Volunteer (once my work let's me travel out of state again that is...)

If I ever pay for throttle time at IRM it will be an interurban on the mainline! Those things look like so much fun!

But yes I love seeing how many young volunteers IRM has - IRM is the best museum in the country and should be setting the example for all others to follow.

I wouldn't say it is stunningly small at all. The Cumbres and Toltec fireman and engineer school has already sold out every opening despite this costing several thousand dollars https://cumbrestoltec.com/schedule/special-trains/ . Previous years have all sold out. I am pretty sure every opening for engineer for a hour with all the big steam engines have been or will be sold out or will be no matter how expensive. The Abilene and Smokey valley engineer for a day costs a thousand dollars and is always sold out. Cab rides are a $100.00 a trip and always sold out.

You cite costs yet are you not running steam every day of the season regardless? It's a moot point as those wheels are going to turn anyways. Adding a hour or two a day devoted to engineer for a hour is only costing a hours worth of fuel plus a team member to two in the cab. I can't imagine a hours worth of wear and tear, plus the small amount of fuel you use on typically a small section of flat running would cost very much. A thousand dollars for a engineer for a hour works out to $16.60 dollars a minute. Any railroad not taking advantage of cab rides or engineer for a hour is just hurting itself.

Even if you were a railroad doing strictly cab rides and engineer for a hour programs do you really think it would be a money loser? The cost a customer would be paying for a mile of travel would be staggering.

One thing is for certain the prices to ride a train now days are going into the stratosphere. The Verde Canyon train ride is averaging $100.00-$125.00 a ticket. The Grand Canyon train is staring $67.00 for a adult. Pikes Peak cog railway is $58.00. I believe the passenger train the Big Boy pulled was averaging $1,400 a ticket and all sold out.

Let us remind you of what you specifically said:



So in two posts, you've gone from restoring a UP Big Boy JUST to offer "engineer for an hour" programs to running an extra hour any day whatever loco you have is under steam.

That isn't apples and oranges; that's elephants and oranges.

At $1,000 an hour, running SIX "engineer for an hour" runs EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR, you'd get a little over $2.1 million gross. Now deduct fuel costs, wear and tear, several full-time employees (basically two shifts), classroom training for the would-be engineers, administration, overhead, etc., and you're down probably well below $1 million. Throw in insurance? There's probably another half-million, who knows--remember, you're letting random strangers come up and run you big 1.2-million-pound contraption, into which you've sunk several million in repairs. NOT gonna be a small bill. And by now, you've attracted OSHA, the FRA, state regulators, your local zoning board, etc. for your new full-time commercial enterprise.......

This also presumes you've found 2,190 people per year willing and able to schedule themselves on whatever random day is available and show up there at their schedules slot of 2 PM on October 18th, whatever that is, AND pony up $1,000. And again every year.

Now, how much did restoring this Big Boy cost again?

You've made a reasonable case for the "pro" outfits like Valley RR, Strasburg, D&S, Sierra, GCRY, etc. to offer some form of "cab experience lite." And guess what? Many of them are already doing so, one way or the other. (Not GCRY.)

But I know someone who was involved, for a spell, with the somewhat secretive world of renting exotic sports cars, primarily for the people compelled to drive a Lambo or Ferrari, or even a souped-up Mustang 5.0, "just once." He told me "you'd think it'd be obscenely profitable, but it's not--we cover costs and salaries, but not much more. We do it because we love the cars and the experience--and, of course, we get to benefit from the ride now and then."

Our direct costs to operate 58 is about $50 per day. I am not sure what the total cost is to operate since we have not operated long enough to figure up those costs, but to be certain it is exceedingly inexpensive to operate a small locomotive. If there is water in the tank and coal in the bin, it doesn't take much to fire up and have some fun.

I have had a Youtube channel since 2009, but didn't start posting videos with any regularity until 2015 when we started on the restoration of 58. Back then I had several hundred subscribers and not many views. But with the series of videos on the restoration, we have developed quite a following to the point where we now have 6,800 subs and average about 15,000 views per month. Just this morning I got a call from one of our viewers who wants to come see the locomotive this summer. Youtube unlocks an entirely different audience than what we would receive on the other social media platforms.

It works, and more of us should think about developing youtube channels to show off what we do.

Rick, are you at liberty to give a breakdown of the operating costs per day on 58? $50/day seems like a bargain.

Out of that $50 is $25 for water treatment and $25 for coal if we use a quarter ton. I have enough donated lubricants to last for years. Our water is free. I don't add in the cost to haul the coal or some of the other intangibles that I just do as a matter of course, but I suppose if someone were to add up all those costs it would be much greater per operating day.

It is hard to tell where I end and the railroad begins sometimes.