So that all of his employees are properly trained on what a confined space is and what it requires. Why do that even if your facility doesn't have any? Several reasons.

If the OSHA or State inspector shows up and asks "Have you had confined space entry training?" the employee can say "Yes, we're aware of what situations require confined space protocol".

If something change where the employee encounters a confined space at the facility, they'll know how to recognize it. Maybe they install a new piece of equipment, or work on something that creates a confined space. Or there may be an existing space the manager isn't aware of. For example, catch basins and manholes are common. Can't a guy just crawl in there and remove that pile of trash blocking the drain? No, they can't.

My crew has had brief training on confined space, trench safety, electrical lock out tag out, scaffolding etc. All of it is a short overview and followed by "You will NOT do any of that work without additional training and supervision". But they can't say "I didn't know I couldn't work in a 6 foot deep hole, or over 4 feet above the ground, etc."

The general knowledge is still beneficial for safety, and 20 minutes about confined space is a pretty brief overview.

Interesting discussion, and timing. My eldest son, who sometimes lurks here but may not have an account, is the chief engineer on a Coast Guard cutter. He just finished a 4 day course on 'gas free entry'. I never though much about it before, but the bilges, tanks and voids on a vessel would also be defined as confined spaces. I suspect he will weigh in, through me. And now I know why we had to stencil a manhole, sitting in the front yard, at my last job, with a confined space warning.

I worked for years in the engineering department of a investor-owned, domestic water provider in Southern California. We placed large meters, pressure regulating valves, etc. within vaults just below ground level (tops were at grade) that were generally 4' wide x 6' long. These were considered to be confined space and before entering the field maintenance crews had to open the metal folding lids, vent and blow air into the vaults before entering. There may have been poisonous gases at the bottom of the vault.

Working as the TV engineer at a large university a time came for us to follow the confined space rules and training.
We occasionally needed to enter underground cable vaults via a manhole. What used to be a one or two man job in a day now became three guys several days.
Whoever went in had a harness, a tripod and hoist upstairs for the other two onlookers. We also had an expensive gas sniffer that needed an almost as expensive O2 sensor every 6 months. I thought a power ventilator might have been OK alone as the space was only about 400 C.F. but I could never find anyone willing to sigh off on just that without all the other rigmarole.
I do understand the danger we were in if someone had a heart attack down there without it. But when my staff was cut to two people, I retired.

No, I mean why would he not put the entire situation into context to avoid the eye rolls.

There's a strain of people who love to try and come off as " smarter than the experts" or " smarter than the bosses" but it's only fun and games until someone's smart assery gets someone killed.

I'm going only off memory here, but I suspect the supervisor in question may not have known whatever context provoked the review, and never found out. He had orders, and by jolly gum, he was going to follow them. I seem to think the employees were all "well, you paid to waste our time, we were on the clock, so what?" [shrugs of shoulders]

In retrospect, I wouldn't have done it differently. The last thing you need to do is announce to everyone that you're about to waste 15-30 minutes telling them something "useless" (which, as others pointed out, isn't really 100% useless). The bosses can accuse you of "telling them not to pay attention" to an "important safety meeting."

Welcome to the world the comic strip "Dilbert" depicts constantly.

This article brings up more about the event that OP mentioned at the start of this thread:

https://trib.com/news/state-and-regiona ... 3c80d.html

Victims were 28 year old Dallas Mitchell (who appears to have been a young father from what I can see on social media), and Daniel Conway 18 both of Wyoming. They were drilling off paint on the tank car interior to perform an ultrasound test on the metal thickness of the car. The car was used in propane service. It is believed a spark from their grinder ignited propane fumes remaining in the car causing the explosion. No determination as to why the gaseous fumes remained in the car has been made by investigators yet.

I found a GoFundMe account set up for Dallas's funeral expenses here:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/funeral-and- ... e=customer

I would hope that WRRC would have had at least some minimum employee insurance coverage so that the widow of an employee killed on the job isn't forced to do a Go Fund Me page to pay for his funeral,..... as seems the case here.

Tragic accident and one would think totally avoidable had the left over Propane fumes been purged out of the car??

I'm sure we'll learn more when the FRA and OSHA publish their findings.

Ross Rowland

Not necessarily a steam shop, per se, but the restoration shop at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania must deal with the confined space issue, thanks to bureaucracy. But, if the pit must be entered, it's not as simple as retrieving the meter from the office... Because the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has no money, the closest meter is at the Daniel Boone Homestead in Birdsboro- 50 miles and at least an hour's drive away, one way. This complication has the ability to make even as simple a task as dropping a tool into the pit into half a day's driving just to test the air in the pit! The practical solution hangs on a nearby wall- a strong magnet on a piece of rope.

Let me get this straight;

Etalcos and myself share a links to this story and have our threads deleted or altered (Confined Space Entries on Railroad Equipment to Confined Space Entries Related to Preservation) however other users can post the same link and actually discuss the event and it's allowed?

I pointed out there was nothing inflammatory, accusatory or demeaning in my OP so forgive me if I'm too stupid to understand why there seems to be preferential treatment towards some users versus others?

This accident is a tragedy and was 100% preventable. Being employed in a similar industry and as a young father myself, this resonates on very personal level. I look forward to what OHSA and the FRA's investigation yields and I hope said investigation can be discussed without threat of censorship.

Jeff

This is an incredibly pertinent topic in Railway Preservation. I would list Confined Space among the top 3 challenges to maintaining the steam program at Grand Canyon Railway. Our insurance company and Risk Department is very strict about following OSHA guidelines, even though we have never had an OSHA representative on our property here in 30 years.

For years, one of our big questions was the separation between Permit Required Confined Space and non Permit Required Confined Space. The company's stance for most properties is that Company employees do not enter Permit Required Confined Spaces. That job is left for specialized contractors. However, Xanterra's risk department reads the OSHA regulations and lists boilers, fireboxes, and tender tanks (water side) as Permit Required Confined Spaces. Can you imagine the complexities if I had to find a suitable contractor every time we needed to perform a boiler internal inspection, or enter the firebox to clean the crud build up around the burner, or repair damaged firebrick?

We've been working with our corporate risk team in order to produce a comprehensive and site specific Confined Space Program that allows GCR employees to work in these areas. Here are some of the requirements:

1) The employee working in the confined space must carry an air quality measuring device, which is calibrated and tested according to manufacturers instructions. It must be active and monitored at all times during the confined space entry.

2) A 'hole watch' is provided at all times during the confined space entry. This individual must monitor the confined space and it's entrant or entrants, as well as the surrounding area. If an issue develops with the entrant he is able to get help. He is also watching for changes in the outside environment which may cause a danger to the entrant or others outside of the confined space, such as welding or machinery being operated outside the area which may compromise the air quality, or someone coming too close to an open pit.

3) The entrant must be tethered for emergency egress. This is typically accomplished with a safety harness. If you thought entering a boiler was tough before, try doing it strapped in a bulky harness! We are getting some wrist straps for this part to replace the safety harness. Easier to get in and out, but trying to do work with a cable attached to your wrist will be difficult.

4) Our fire department here in Williams is all volunteer. It could take 15 to 30 minutes to get a response, and they are not necessarily trained in this type of confined space rescue. We have to count on being able to handle initial response ourselves. We conduct regular CPR and first aid training for all employees who are willing to go through the course.

Several years ago, there was a fatality at a RR museum whereby someone died inside a boiler while performing an inspection. I believe he had a heart attack, and did not die because of issues with the confined space itself. However, the limited egress delayed medical attention. I think it took several hours to get the body out. If that had happened more rapidly, perhaps CPR could have been performed to save his life.

I'd love to hear what other operations are doing for Confined Space. Fall Protection is another great topic. Someone should start a new thread on that as well.

Eric Hadder
Grand Canyon Railway

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This looks like a perfect example of “somebody in an office thought that was a good idea.” Accidentally deadly safety equipment is not a small concern and the answers are not always evident. If a sturdy leather belt solid enough to grab with a fire hook would work, would the belt itself become a safety hazard that could catch?

The first thing most safety lecturers start with is “Don’t make it worse!” The post about people rushing in to help and getting caught up is so common in coal mining that it has to be drilled into everyone from minute one: Don’t become the problem. I have a lot of material and won’t clog the board with links and such. Willow Grove, Jim Walter Resources, the air shaft at McElroy mine...all had added death and injury tolls because people who could not bear to wait ran in to help. (McElroy was One of the rare cases where an untrained but well-equipped and sensible rescue actually worked.)

This may be of use to some of you. I have a lot more links to free online training and the like that might be a good entry point: https://www.oshatrain.org/courses/mods/713m8.html

The information Becky just posted states that "wristlets" are permissible if they can be shown to be the most effective for the situation. I should think that should be easy; a body harness adds bulk to the torso, which is the hardest part of the body to get through the fire door or dome, whereas pulling by the wrists naturally streamlines the body. Once the victim's arms are out, rescuers can reach in to position the head and shoulders without actually entering the space.

That leaves the problem of actually working with the safety lines flopping around. I wonder if it is permissible to tether the lines to the forearms with velcro straps so they are out of the way, but still attached. When pulled, the velcro should release, allowing the lines to pull the arms out straight.

Sometimes it seems like it's impossible to comply with OSHA. You may have to engineer a big enough man-way or a larger dome to be able to get someone out with a harness. Hopefully the T-1 Trust has thought about this. Back in the pre-OSHA days: I know what it feels like to pull my self out of the top of a 40 foot tall hot lime softener through a tight man-way with and without a harness on, without any help.