Oftentimes on this sight, I have seen talk of three Southern Ps-4 Pacifics being refurbished for preservation, but only one (1401) actually being saved. This was apparently spoken of on Trains Magazine.

Does anyone know what the other two Ps-4 numbers were?

Here's what is known. The main scrapping of the Ps-4s started in 1952. In early 1953, Southern Railway did a display in Spencer with 1393, a Class J 2-8-0 #544, and a few diesels for the Rowan County centennial. Word was at the time per Ties was that the 1393 was destined to go to the Smithsonian. Both engines were eventually scrapped. I've heard Atlanta turned down a Ps-4. I've also heard Spencer and Charlotte were possibles as well. So fair chance 1393 was one of those had there been interest.

That said, remember this was 1953 and whatever preservation movement that existed a few years later didn't exist at that point in time. A couple years later and we'd probably have several Ps-4s in preservation. Southern just dieselized too early to be able to save much.

Kevin

Hell, one of the reasons I asked about this was because it was part of research for some rail preservation-themed content on alternatehistory.com.

If I had my way, I'd frankly have had at least 4 Ps-4s stick around. With at least one for Claytor's steam program (specifically 1398 in my idea).

Years ago, Jim Bistline told me that C. W. Witbeck told him of seeing a PS-4 in Mexico near Vera Cruz. When Graham Claytor heard the story he sent Mr. Bistline to investigate it. Supposedly, the engine was working for an industry in that area. Also, he searched for any PS-4's that might have been sold to any companies in Mexico but noting was found in existing records.

Also, Bill Purdie told me that in the 1950's, while he was working at Pegram Shop in Atlanta, there was a PS-4 that came through the shop for repairs. This was when SR was pretty much dieselized and the PS-4's had been retired. He said the engine was not the 1393 and he was amazed that the engine was shopped that late date.

So, was there a PS-4 that escaped?

-Jim Herron

1401?

Who here is old enough to comment? 1952-53 was there really much nostalgia in popular culture? WWII and the Korean war were really fresh. I imagine most people were just glad to move on and upgrade their living standard. Ten years later, the wealth and standard of living are much higher, and there is more opportunity to indulge in nostalgia.

We can clearly see the difference a decade can make in preservation between what we saved and what was saved by our brothers across the pond.

There was a great sadness at that time of steam being replaced by painted boxes. Still sadness over certain total scrapping of certain engines and classes. NYC Hudson anyone? NP 2626? Any of MP or D&RGW larger power? Efforts were made back then but to no avail. Personally I always thought a Frisco 4300 should have been saved for Springfield, MO since they were built in the shop there. Frisco was generous for a "smaller" railroad in its donations. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Around 1957, Reading Company wanted to preserve G-3 Pacific 219, the last new engine built at Reading Shops, but the City of Reading was not interested. All 10 G-3's were then scrapped.

As we know the T-1 4-8-4's fared better. Some were in service on the Shamokin Division in 1957.

Phil Mulligan

The story in Train, I believe, listed the three locomotives. Smithsonian took 1401 because it pulled FDR's funeral train. I've been told that Al Perlman offered a Hudson to the Smithsonian but they turned it down. Then again there's a story that Smithsonian asked for one and Perlman turned them down.
The rush to modernize in the American post-war world was huge, and being entirely honest, American were looking to the skies, not the rails. By the time of Sputnik and Explorer 1, even ocean liners were doomed.
One can compose a short list of offered steam locomotives which got turned down, and a very long list of locomotives which should have simply been squirreled away in a locked roundhouse stall until somebody requested them; a Niagara, a Hudson, a PRR J1a, a Q2, a T1. Then there's the story of the lost EM1. Need I go on?

Since there has now been mention of other than the Southern Ps-4's in this thread, I thought I would throw one more story in. I was surprised a while back to see a photograph of five steamers that the Rock Island was holding for preservation on open tracks leading from a turntable. Three 4-6-2's; 887, 905 and 938, but also a 4-8-2 and a 4-8-4 (earlier class; not a 5100). The three Pacific's were all eventually donated (887 as 886), but not the two bigger engines. Wish I could recall where I saw that photo and what the engine numbers were for the Mountain and the Northern. The financial situation of the Rock was not good, even in those times, and having 3 of their engines preserved is still amazing to me today. Still, would have liked to see that one (or both) of the bigger engines was saved. The 4-8-4, as a representative of the largest fleet of Northern's in the U.S.A., would have really been appropriate. Wonder what happened, since they had come so close?

Les

But which version of a NYC hudson... unstreamlined, Dreyfus etc?

not at all a NYC steam expert, so maybe by the end they were all stripped of the cowling?

Paul, I think it says a lot more about the difference in our cultures than in the passing of time.

Maybe a combination of timing and culture. I think more U. S. steam would have been saved given another decade, but certainly nothing like in the UK and much of Europe. I'm especially jealous of the lineside infrastructure that has been preserved in the UK compared to us, and clearly a lot of that was lost well after the end of steam.

There was a big difference in wealth in the UK between 1955 and 1965. Had the UK dieselized on the same schedule as North America, I don't think as much material would remain. Certainly not the Barry scrapyard collection. Remember, Flying Scotsman was preserved in private ownership. Private wealth was such that UK museums even purchased some of our Danish locomotives.

Octopussy (James Bond) was filmed in the UK, but the engine was Danish Railways S740, which is now back here at our museum.