I've read some comments about and seen firsthand 8 volt deep cycle batteries (marine and "golf cart") used to start GE switchers in the 44 to 85 ton range. These are 32v systems and the engines don't require as much ooomph to turn over compared to an Alco, especially in cold weather. We need to replace the "battery bricks" on our Alco S-3 and would really like to use deep cycle batteries if they'll work.

8 volt deep cycle batteries seem to be growing in popularity, especially in marine and golf cart applications. They are commonly available at automotive and battery repair/supply shops but I'm concerned that our application requires more juice than these batteries can provide. None of them state CCA rating. All I can find is 165-ish amp-hours capacity (Duracell Ultra). They certainly are attractive (lower price and handling convenience at just 68 lbs each) but won't be any good to us if they can't perform. I think "golf cart batteries" are too good to be true but you guys are the experts so here are my questions.

Has anyone in this group had actual experience installing deep cycle batteries to power a 64v Alco 539 or similarly-sized engine? If yes, please elaborate what batteries you used (source), the charging system used to maintain the batteries, and any other pointers you're willing to share.

I would be worried about the deep cycle batteries being hooked up in series. My experience is with 44 Tonners and the 8 marine batteries that it takes to start them. These batteries normally had flag terminals to connect the jumper cables. They had to be cleaned on a regular basis. Any sign of corrosion around the terminals, the connection would flash and melt the flag terminal off. Sort of ruins the day when the customer is expecting a delivery and you have hunt down a replacement battery. We were fortunate back then to have the former NYO&W Master Electrician live right around the corner. He started his RR career actually repairing and rebuilding coach batteries. He had in his bag of tricks the name of a company that was still making repair flag terminals and I got an education helping him repair our battery. Most batteries made today are in my experience, made for normal loads and their connections between the cells and the terminals are lightly constructed. I've had many a regular 12 volt battery fail in this manner. Marine batteries are purpose built for the kind of service found on RR engines. They are expensive (they were back then also) but will give good service if maintained properly.

You need to calculate cell load and rate delivery loaf to make sure it's reliable. Bus bar is probably preferable to jumpers for lack of constant tension.

I doubt total cranking amps is your issue. For instance, a GP20 cranks through a 400 amp fuse, which means the cranking amps can never exceed that for any meaningful amount of time. Even the most puny car batteries can supply 400 amps.

Locomotives make up for comparatively low cranking amps with voltage. 400 amps at 12 volts is about 6.5 horsepower of cranking capacity, which is plenty to briskly spin over even the largest automotive and light truck engines. 400 amps at 64 volts is over 34 horsepower!

"Amp Hours" and "Reserve Capacity" both measure the same thing in two different ways, which is how long the battery can power a given load before it dies. Obviously, a big loco battery will blow away the smaller batteries on this. So if you have to crank for a long time, or the batteries are not fully charged, you could hit bottom before you get the engine started. The biggest Interstate brand 8v golf car battery has 183 amp hours, which figures out to about 27 minutes at 400 amps. It will actually be less, because the harder you hit a battery, the less capacity you realize. And that is only for new, fully charged batteries.

The biggest thing I see is that golf cart and deep cycle batteries are NOT cranking batteries. They can be damaged by the high currents of cranking use. I would pick marine cranking type batteries for this use.

The exciter cranked 539 is a bit of a current hog when it comes to cranking. I have measured ours at ~1000 amps inrush to get them spinning and it settles down to about 650 amps while cranking. Having said that I have had an experiment going on for about 5 years now but I haven't said anything online about it until I knew how it was going to work out. In the spring of 2016 one of our S-2's required a new set of batteries. For a little over $1000 I installed 5 12 volt 8D Heavy Duty batteries. I adjusted the voltage regulator down to ~70 volts and we have had ZERO issues for 5 years now. The batteries seem just as strong as they did when I installed them and were 1/5 the price of 8 of the 8 volt railroad batteries. In the years since then we had to replace the batteries in our other 2 539 equipped locomotives and they are also both working well. As far as cranking is concerned you can't tell a bit of difference between the 60 vs 64 volts and I wouldn't be surprised if the 8D's actually are a bit better at keeping the voltage up while cranking as they are a starting battery as opposed to the locomotive batteries which I believe are actually Deep Cycle batteries. You can find them with a rating of 1700 cranking amps

YMMV but so far it is much healthier for our Museums bottom line! ~$3000 vs ~$15,000 for 3 sets of batteries...

(8) Deka 8V195 is what we have been using in our 900 hp SW8 (upgraded) and GE 44 tonner. You will have to adapt to automotive style terminals (tapered). Price was $290 each in 2017.

Plenty of power, for the SW-8 when I was chasing down a fueling issue which turned out to be because the charging rectifier died, which droped the fuel pump relay. So over a dozen restarts with no charge going into the batteries, and still rolled over easy.

Thanks to all who replied. Very encouraging to read another museum has used 12v HD batteries in (3) 539 engines with 5+ years experience.

I've sourced (5) Duracell "SLIDAFT" 12 volt, heavy duty, starting batteries from Batteries+Bulbs for $245 each including core deposit minus 10% discount when ordering on-line. Including sales tax, we're looking at $1185 minus what we can get for the (2) 32v "bricks" at a local scrap yard. Certainly a MUCH better option to "traditional" bricks costing $5k+ for a pair. Below is the link:

https://www.batteriesplus.com/search?q=SLI8DAft

VERY GOOD news for our museum budget! We plan to install the (5) new batteries in about 2 weeks. I'll report results here after installation and a couple cranking cycles for others who might be in the same situation.

I don't think you will be disappointed. You will need to change the ends on your cables or get the marine adapters for the top post batteries. We just used the marine adapters and haven't had any issues with those either. Also the big square headed nuts that are typically used to tighten the cables up to the battery posts have been the same thread as the marine adapters and make a much better connection than the provided wing nuts. Just make sure to keep everything clean and it would not hurt to get the neutralizing pads to go over the battery posts. Also make sure you adjust the voltage regulator down to 70-72 volts. The 79ish volts that it is likely currently set to is a wee bit hot for 30 cells.

Also if you are needing something to keep the batteries topped off due to length of times between starts you could get one of these https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-S ... 167&sr=8-4 and swap it around between the batteries or just get 5 of them and leave them running all the time. I have quite a few of them and they will keep the batteries much happier. I have one on our solar setup in our shop to keep our genset battery topped off and it has ran 24/7 for a few years now. That battery has a date code of sometime in 2012 and it still starts that little diesel with ease.

If you have any questions or concerns about our setup just PM me and I will be happy to help any way I can.

jb

This might be a dumb question…. Running 60V and turning down the regulated voltage - will that affect any electronic components? Our speedo is part of the electronic system installed back in the ‘90s for commuter service.

Most any electronic equipment will internally regulate the voltage down to 12v or 5v, and the power supply should have a pretty wide input range.

Thanks to this thread I will be replacing a set of unitized locomotive batteries in our Alco S2 with five 8D starting batteries. I hope it works!

A question though. How exactly is the voltage regular adjusted downward to 70-72 volts?

Well, it'll be the same relationship/proportion between "nominal" and "float voltage" that you see on any other lead-acid.

If current loco float voltage is 75V, divide by 32 cells and multiply by 30 cells.

By the way, if you park your loco outdoors, the better solar charge controllers can accommodate arbitrary lead-acid battery stacks. So you could find a charge controller that will talk to a 60V (or even 64V with more searching) pack and let you put a few solar panels on the long hood, and keep your batteries topped up.




Somebody put a bug in my ear about lithium batteries for loco starting. Anyone will build you one for $20,000, but I'm intrigued by the idea of building such a pack. The main challenge will be a disconnect contactor or silicon so the battery management system can positively disconnect the battery to protect it from abuse.

Further, it may be possible to use buck conversion (you know, like a DC EV controller) to deliver the ~1000V inrush current *at a much lower voltage*, e.g. I know from experience the engine will roll on as little as 10V. 15V@1000A is only 15kw, which is only 200A on a 75V pack. So you don't need 1000A of lithium.

I see one battery that is capable of 100A surge, and a stack of 20 of those will get to 75V. One recycler had these on sale for $10 each in a 200A-surge rated version. So that is $200 per stack, x 5? 10 at most? Stacks.