Since Ross took the time to say I had useful information, perhaps we can suspend our normal antipathies for some dialogue with at least some agreement.

"As a serious steam lover I long ago realized that Steamtown was created by Cong. Joe McDade to be a Jobs Corp. and steam trains were just the handy excuse. Since its Grand Opening in 1995 it has consumed approx. $ 130 million ( yes million) in taxpayer dollars and hasn't been able to restore a SINGLE mainline locomotive in the collection to service NOR keep several runners they inherited running."


Partially right. When Joe McDade intervened in the mid 80's, he was practicing good retail politics-what the Roman poet Juvenal called panem et circenses (bread and circuses). There was a reason McDade won election after election as a Republican in a Democrat area.

From what I can gather, McDade became aware of the plight of the Steamtown Foundation (parodied here by former Rock107 morning DJ's Daniel and Webster as The Chapter 11 Choo-Choo lead-in starts at :050, the song at 1:50).



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwvoAoaP7Xw

and thought he could bring home the bacon, giving Scranton a tourist attraction that would recognize the important role the Scranton played in the development of railroads, coal and industry, making an abandoned eyesore into a crown jewel.

That of course created a bit of a problem as McDade's parliamentary sleight-of-hand crossed Bruce Vento's jurisdiction as the Chairman of the Interior Committee. Even five years ago when I briefly met a retired Congressman before McDade's death in 2017, he described Steamtown as "Joe McDade's baby".


This was the vision in 1989: see attachment

By 1991:

https://www.gao.gov/assets/t-rced-92-6.pdf

"As intended most of the money goes to a bloated payroll. On many winter days the staff far out numbers the paid visitors. Only in America."

The 2003 Budget Justification, aka "The Greenbook"

https://www.nps.gov/upload/fy-2003-greenbook.pdf

See p ONPS-127

Shows a an employee count (FTE) for FY 2001 of 81, with an operating budget of $4.931M

The 2022 Greenbook; page overview 59

https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/files ... cation.pdf

shows a FY2020 FTE of 47, with a with an actual budget of 5.831M

Keep in mind, back in 2001, There were three or four locomotive engineers on staff for the 8 trips per week to Moscow. The staff reduction is more dramatic when you realize that the administrative and management staff has constancies in it. Thefact is, you will always have a Superintendent and Division Chiefs that aren't, too quote the late Superintendent Hagen "turning wrenches".

Unfortunately, they aren't consistent in presentation, so I must compare enacted and actual.

An additional $900K sounds like a lot of money, but over 19 years, it's a compound annual growth rate of just under 0.98%.

Not sure where you're going with that long post Superheater??

Don't get me wrong I give the late Cong. McDade huge kudos for his proven ability to " bring home the bacon" for his district. He was amongst the best at it.

And yes, I'm sure he envisioned creating a tourist attraction that would help economically depressed ( then and now) Scranton by bringing folks into town who would patronize the local motels/restaurants etc.

But, he was far smart enough to know that the relatively high paying jobs the new National Historic Site would bring with it were much more important to Scranton's well being. He was right.

Sadly, the federal gov't. is not good at creating/managing an entity aimed at attracting visitors from all over to it and thus it's not at all surprising that the SNHS paid visitors numbers have declined steadily from the 250,000 per annum number in its 1995 Grand Opening year to the current less than 50,000/year.

My guess is that with no real steam running now for a number of years those numbers will continue to fall.

There is a solution. Have the NPS contract out the operation of the facility to a private sector Designated Operator ( DO ) such as Strasburg, NH&I, R&N etc. someone who as a proven track record of running a financially successful steam oriented tourist railway. Give them a $ 2 million dollar a year stipend ( saves the taxpayers about $ 4 million a year ) and terms that lets the DO employ the private sector ingredients ( real steam excursions to the DWG, real photo runbys, themed trains etc.) and watch the annual attendance numbers go on a multi year ascent.

Will that ever happen?? Sadly, highly unlikely.

As to the 3713 let's hope that it can continue to muddle along until maybe a new Super comes along who adopts a more enlightened approach???

Hope springs eternal.

Ross Rowland

I don't know where Russ is getting his numbers, but here are Steamtown's Annual Park Recreation Visits according to the NPS Visitor Use Statistics page.

I stand corrected. Thanks for posting the actual numbers. My major point still stands that it's a pretty poor showing for $ 6 million dollars/year of taxpayer funding.

Just imagine what a competent DO could do with that place and a $ 2 million dollar a year stipend. Of course that would mean the end of a lot of high paying jobs, probably closure during the dead winter months etc., so it will never happen.

Oh well, hope springs eternal. Ross Rowland

"Not sure where you're going with that long post Superheater??"

I'd like the many disappointed people to align their expectation with the reality of the situation.


"But, he was far smart enough to know that the relatively high paying jobs the new National Historic Site would bring with it were much more important to Scranton's well being. He was right."

In any park there's only a few "high paying positions".

In 2018, the Superintendent made $114K and a quick survey of other employees I know shows them to be redacted as <$100K earners.

That's hardly what Wall Street calls "eff you" money.

https://www.federalpay.org/employees/na ... -deborah-l


The average pay systemwide has a distribution that peaks in the 50's.


https://www.federalpay.org/employees/na ... rk-service

I would note that a lot of Steamtown's employees are treated to annual furlough and unless it'd been fixed, the furloughs were of uncertain duration.

It's been almost six years since then Superintendent Conway declared to Trains Magazine in that three of four operating steam engines was a "priority". Even without COVID, there's still only be the Baldwin 26.

I remember a conversation with her one day in 2016 or 2017 when she said she thought Stea was a 3-5 year turn around, but now was thinking 7-9.

I've knew instantly she was calling dibs on a lifeboat seat.

And in the twenty-six years since Trains magazine asked this question?

You are right, Steamtown has not progressed-in fact it's gone backwards. Is there a problem? Absolutely. but the answer is far different than arguments from personal indignity-it's not with the interp ranger making a median salary.

I don't begrudge any of the NPS employees what they get paid. My guess is that relative to the median wages earned in Scranton they are in the upper 20% ???

Guess the best we can hope for is a better Super???

Ross Rowland

Our National Parks, our National Historical Sites, our National Memorials, and our other units of the NPS are all open daily.
That strikes me as criminal misappropriation of funds.

My understanding is that the track outside of Steamtown's yard is owned by the Pennsylvania Northeast Regional Railroad Authority. Therefore, any mainline train is operating off-NPS property. To do what Ross suggests would require that NPS funds be spent sponsoring activities (excursions, runbys, whatever) primarily intended to happen off NPS property. That's not what Congress intends to happen with NPS funds; NPS funds are to be spent on parks! To do what Ross suggests would require a federal Contracting Officer criminally misappropriate federal funds. That's just not going to happen and it is silly to keep suggesting it.

"Guess the best we can hope for is a better Super???"

You can, but you should keep something in mind.

As with most bureaucracies; the NPS is somewhat incestuous.

Most NPS facilities fall in one of a couple sort of categories. The natural places like Yellowstone; battlefields. birthplaces.

There's very little in the way of industrial history. The only one place with operating railroad equipment is Golden Spike National Historical Park-and that's a constrained operation.

If Gettysburg needs staff; they can either promote within or post within the system. There are lots of other facilities that have mid 19th-century buildings and or monuments.

Qualified steam mechanics and machinists are nowhere to be found in the system.

When a Superintendent comes to Steamtown it takes a couple years to figure the place out; they've never had to deal with the FRA, antique air brakes or any of a myriad of issues that emerge in Scranton and nowhere else.

Couldn't it also be called "misappropriation of funds" to spend $860,000 for a still incomplete passenger car restoration, or to use money that's supposed to go toward maintaining and restoring operating equipment and letting the equipment sit with no work being done, and pulling the plug on an active project?

Also, I'm a little confused now by Superheater's point. Previous superintendents seemed to support steam restoration. Mr. Hagen definitely did and Ms. Conway also seemed to. It was understandable that they had to work within the limitations of government funding. However, the current superintendent has pulled the plug on the only locomotive restoration that was currently taking place but Superheater's last post seems to imply that since Steamtown is unlike any other National Park, there may be some growing pains with whoever takes charge? It would not have been hard to stay the course and continue the plans that were already established. I don't think it's unrealistic to hope for a superintendent that would take a stance more like Mr. Hagen or Ms. Conway and not alienate a group that has had a long relationship with the Park Service.

John

Another issue involved, and something I have some secondhand experience with:

It is possible to subcontract out a job, service, etc. from "the government" to a private concern. The parks concessions run by Xanterra at Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, etc. are an example.

BUT:
In measures outlined in detail by the various bureaucracies, said contractors MUST abide by numerous government regulations and mandates, all of which can turn a simple job into a quagmire.

I once saw a temporary agency hired to do a job repainting fire hydrants at a military installation--literally carry a bucket, find a hydrant and slap paint on it for five minutes. The temp agency had to be vetted as to minority hiring practices; they had to pay wages that were on the order of more than twice the "going" rate for such work locally; they had to pass background checks and go through safety training, etc.--for a job that a private company in theory could fill by going to the big-box hardware outlet and hiring the people that loiter in the parking lot looking for odd jobs!
The temp agency told me "It was a sweet gig for the guys that got to do it for a week aside from the heat and being outside, but we'd never do that again!" (One of the guys got heat exhaustion.)

My sincere impression is that our "favorite" steam operators out there would take a look at this hypothetical federal Request For Proposal for operating Steamtown, and about halfway through the "Terms and Conditions" would toss it aside and say "Nope...... not worth all this cr@p....."

"That strikes me as criminal misappropriation of funds.

My understanding is that the track outside of Steamtown's yard is owned by the Pennsylvania Northeast Regional Railroad Authority. Therefore, any mainline train is operating off-NPS property. To do what Ross suggests would require that NPS funds be spent sponsoring activities (excursions, runbys, whatever) primarily intended to happen off NPS property."

Giving people and opportunity to ride steam, including off-site was explicitly mentioned in Congressional Resolutions from the 1990's and other documents.



@rem1028

One you seem to think is that the NPS is filled with faithful public servants. I offer you this from the mid 90's.


"Even James M. Ridenour, who was NPS director, complained too much was being spent to create new parks NPS didn't want or need. "Tourism is not our mission." He said the money would be better spent to preserve and maintain the nation's great national parks."

https://www.mcall.com/news/mc-xpm-1995- ... story.html

You see, there are people who think they, not the people acting through elected representatives (and yes, we all know it's a sausage factory, but what people like Ridenour want is authority without accountability-because he's an "expert") There's a lot of people in Washington who aspire to create such a technocracy. We'll tell you what's important, what should be a park, what shouldn't.

I will also note that when The Organic Act established the National Park Service as an agency under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior with the stated purpose of promoting use of national park lands while protecting them from impairment. Specifically, the Act declares that the National Park Service has a dual mission, both to conserve park resources and provide for their use and enjoyment “in such a manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired” for future generations. 16 U.S.C. §1-that there are people who believe -and I've heard them express this viewpoint-that the dual mandate is unworkable-therefore "preserving unimpaired" would best be accomplished if there were minimal visitors.

@Mr. Mitchell

There's another problem with RFP's -and I say this as the developer of the screening tests my employer uses to ensure the financial viability of respondents. We are theoretically looking for the best offer-but inevitably, our tests favor prior experience; audited financials, a longer history-so you end up doing what military does-selecting between Boeing and LockMartin and if you follow aviation history, you know how many names have fallen or been absorbed (Consolidated, Convair, Vultee..)

I once told the former Superintendent that she had to face something her predecessors did not-competition.

The Stourbridge line is resurgent; the Allentown and Auburn and Colebrookdale lines are new attractions, as is the Northern Central-and then there's the increasing reach of the Reading and Northern-and when the 2102 is up and running, perhaps with full length domes through the Lehigh Gorge-that will be the premier attraction.

Here's something to think about. Assume for the sake of argument the magic grant fairy gives Steamtown money to finish the 3713, and they start on the 3377 and 3713 is ready to go in 2023.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews ... candidate/

This year will be 9 years since the last mainline trip was made by Steamtown. Most of the qualified road engineers are gone, either deceased or quit.

There are three individuals left to my knowledge who where steam qualified when 3254 was put to pasture and one is getting up in years. How do you get them in a place where they are comfortable; and then there's the issue of firemen. even those that are good at firing the hand-bombed 26 have something new to learn when it comes to being a fireman on a stoker fed engine and you have to be a road-qualified fireman before you are putting your butt in the right seat.

Even though it's a VERY Long shot the one possibility that might work to get Dieseltown back on track ( pun intended) to once again be rightfully called Steamtown is to get POTUS interested enough to give orders to the Sec'y. of Interior that he expects it straightened out pronto and mainline steam again running regularly asap.

I said it was a long shot for sure but since it's his birth town ( which he often mentions) it's worth a shot.

I'll work on it. Ross Rowland

"get POTUS interested enough to give orders to the Sec'y. of Interior that he expects it straightened out pronto and mainline steam again running regularly asap."

You really don't get it, do you?

Only on Gilligan's Island does the professor take a couple of palm fronds and two coconut halves and make a radio, and political decretals don't change the proximate reality.

Would you believe me if I told you the likely next operational locomotive will be an EMD?