So this is a perfect example of how the SYSTEM did not umm - allow or enable -- neither a woman nor a black to get into engine service back in that day Without this individual behaving badly. One would have to demonstrate that this individual behaved badly by - say prohibiting or doing nothing when such a person tried to get into engine service.

++++++++

Does your organization's system have a published procedure for how a person who has been &_#@d over can try to get justice? Does that process avoid the stupidity that I witnessed in a different large bureaucracy in which the complaint was routed back to the stupidvisor that was the guilty party, including doxing the person complaining?

Brian

He's the one who ran or at least had a hand in most of the operations he listed.

Correct. His racism and chauvinism have been called out here before, yet he persists.

I have lurked in this forum for quite some time, but can no longer remain silent. Thank you, Moderators, for approving my membership so quickly.

Let's start by defining the word "systemic". Please pardon the crudity of the source, but the Wiktionary defines systemic as:



From everything Nick talks about in his "study" and the conversations here, not to mention a lifetime of observation in this industry, it seems to me this issue is not one that is embedded within the very fabric of rail preservation, but an issue perpetuated by certain individuals within it. There lies the root of the problem- why are we painting this industry with the broad brush of social justice rather than identifying the bad actors and steamroll them out of relevance?

To add clarity to my position, I have shared this topic as presented here with two female friends in this industry- one holds a professional position at an operating museum (after starting as engine crew at a young age), the other is a Board member with a notable preservation project. The topic was presented as-is with no prior discussion or interjection of my own opinions. Much to my surprise, both reacted the same way- "Why is this an issue? Fix the individual sources rather than generalizing." They, being far more qualified to hold an opinion on this topic than I, have chosen to look at this logically rather than allowing emotion to control their responses. I commend them for that.

To note, I have had the privilege of working alongside both of these women- firing for one, disassembling a mainline star and switching with the other- and both are exceptionally capable individuals with a lot to offer this industry. I am proud to call them my friends!

Along those lines of weeding out the bad apples that continue to get a pass...

A younger friend of mine got his start in rail preservation volunteering at a notable Southern operating museum. Being an African-American (sorry, "POC), he was actively denied opportunities to advance into engine service. Management was overheard making racial slurs in what was assumed to be a private setting. Similar discrimination has been observed towards those of the LGBTQ persuasion, as well. But, much like so many other things in this industry, it's swept under the rug and accepted as to not rock the boat. Meanwhile, this exceptionally talented fellow (a mechanical engineer, by the way) has hand-fired an overly-taxed 0-6-0 for me. Out of any of the firemen we had that day, he did the best out of anyone, and I'd be happy to have him on board again. I checked with our DSLE who was in the cab for the run, and with his blessing had that fireman run the return trip as my token of appreciation while I fired for him- nobody had ever let him run an engine before, and to this day he still talks about how much he enjoyed it.

If the battle cry in this industry is "systemic" issues, perhaps Mr. Ozorak's real battle should be the rash of "experts" performing unsafe, if not downright illegal, work on locomotives and cars across this country. These people are allowed to continue doing such things, especially in the steam locomotive world, and it seems we cannot discuss the issues because these people are someone's "friend". Thankfully the seemingly worst of these offenders has been pretty well routed from the industry, but there are still people out there that take many thousands of an organization's hard-earned dollars and leave them with a locomotive that is illegal and unsafe, sometimes not even fit to hold water. Yet, we as an industry won't address these issues for fear of hurting somebody's feelings. As an esteemed Nevada friend has said to me more than once, in the aviation world problems are immediately addressed and bulletins go out industry wide to prevent further issues from happening.

Why can't this industry take responsibility for these bad actors, and why can't we address these issues collectively without things being swept under the rug? THAT is a systemic problem in this industry. Not to detract from the issue at hand, but if another Gettysburg takes place, who is involved with what we do won't matter- because we won't be able to do what we do.

My apologies for hijacking this thread in so many different directions, thank you for your time.

Dennis Ryan
East Aurora, NY

It is good to see you finally engaging in this thread in a meaningful way. You brought up a couple of things that I wish to touch on.

But before we go on, lets dispense with the term systemic sexism and instead address this as incidents of sexual discrimination. In that way we can dispose of the notion that this is a radical feminist/neomarxist tactic to condemn all white males as oppressors, and instead address this problem as solvable incidents of mistreating women in rail preservation. If we can agree on that, lets move on.

Judging from the responses here, many of us have been listening when others have said that they faced problems. I do not think that any of us here (with one notable exception) is going to tolerate treating women differently and we do our best to be as inclusive as possible. You state that "countless" people have said they have seen or faced problems. Countless? I see no evidence either in the survey or elsewhere that would support the use of the word "countless". Exaggerating the provable size of the problem doesn't help us in solving it and is just as bad as burying one's head in the sand and saying there is no problem. Certainly there is a problem but it is somewhere between NONE and COUNTLESS.

I don't remember reading here where anyone accused anyone of being a stalinist, and if I missed it, remember that is the opinion of one person only. Also, it is best to not assume that all rail preservation organizations are identical. Perhaps a focus on social justice may attract more volunteers to your organization, but at others a focus on conservative principles is what helps volunteers feel more at home. Of course our organizations are mandated to remain neutral in the eyes of the govt. and I do my best to leave politics out of my rail preservation work as much as possible.

The practical solutions to this problem as I see it are to raise awareness that there is a problem (which this thread and survey have done), recognize it as what it is (isolated incidents and not something systemic), and then discuss ways to minimize or eliminate it. I wonder if the HRA would be interested in taking a lead role in drafting model sets of sexual harassment policies that member orgs could modify and adopt for their needs. Perhaps another constructive thing to do is to hold a seminar on sexual harassment at the next HRA conference. Help us identify sexual harassment when we see it and what steps to take when we do see it.

Lets move forward with constructive solutions that recognize the true size of the problem that avoids overinflating it as well as avoid using incendiary language that condemns the majority demographic in our industry.

Again, since this thread seems to be lacking in female opinion....

I am in agreement that the majority of people in railroading don't have an issue with females working with them, but, there are still a great number of people that do have a problem with it.

For those of you that don't see that there is an issue with the perception of females in railroading, I challenge you to post a picture of a completely competent firelady or female engineer on Facebook and read the comments. They range from sexist remarks about making a wrong turn headed to the kitchen to being ogled like a piece of meat.

No matter how you want to argue about the wording of things, the fact remains that perception is an issue and it may not be just within the organization, it is with the railfans and public as well.

I'm sure I speak for many women in train service when I say that we don't want special treatment, we don't want big parades and tiaras for being in the cab. We just want everyone to shut up and let us do our job without having to hear comments like have been made in this thread and previous threads as well as comments that are made every time someone posts a picture of us.

By the way people on here get offended when someone contradicts their beliefs or challenges their knowledge, I would think that there would be many who would be sympathetic to the annoyance that occurs every time someone asks to talk to the man in the cab instead of me because they think they must be more knowledgeable about the locomotive.

I know this may not be a popular opinion but if you wanted it sugar coated you should have asked a baker.


Steam Girl

Absolutely spot on. As much as it felt good in the moments when visitors stopped by with their little kids to watch as I wrenching on something or excitedly waved back when I stopped to smile and wave out the door of a cab unit to them, it would be nice to reach a point where women were so commonplace around the shops or in service that it needn't be a holy-smokes-look-it's-a-woman, stop-in-their-tracks moment, because there was plenty of that. It's fun when it's a little girl, who you like to think can then imagine herself doing this when she's older, but it's quite a different thing when you're dealing with groups of older railfans who stop, ogle, and make smirking double-entendres to each other about tool-handling or head when I'm elbow-deep in EMD schmoo cleaning cylinder liners. It gets old pretty fast, and it's no longer something I'm willing to just shrug off with a smile and continue to tolerate. It would be nice to have men out there reading this thread commit to starting to 'check' each other if they're out in a group or congregating online when those remarks crop up, but it may be too much of an ask for some. That said, I'd like to think there are at least a few, as evidenced by this thread, who would be willing to do so and very likely already are. All it takes is someone to start modeling the behavior and others may follow suit.

That will happen but it does take time. There is no getting around that. Whenever women have entered any workplace dominated by men there is a period of adjustment that takes place where the women are treated as you describe. But it does tend to go away as the presence of women becomes commonplace. It will never completely disappear because some men are pigs and that is one of the undeniable truths of life.



Some of us already do that. But sometimes you just need to climb down out of the locomotive cab, walk over and grab that disrespecting guy by his collar and tell him in no uncertain terms that you belong in that cab, you are not going anywhere and if he does not start treating women with respect that you will throw his ass in the firebox and all the men here will applaud as you do it. Sometimes you have to fight for the respect you deserve.

With Ross's latest statement, quoted below, we're getting crickets from those same folks who earlier called for blacklisting of railroads and museums. Why is that? Will Jacob, Josh, and others be avoiding these operations too? Or is reputation and personal politics influencing this silence?

As a preservationist with a wife that's also involved in this hobby/industry, I've been watching this thread (and the other places that Nick's posted his podcast) with interest. While she wasn't one of the respondents to Nick's survey, she noted that many of the instances indicated in the responses seemed oddly familiar to her own experiences.

Whether or not the sexism is "systemic" in the preservation world isn't really the issue here, but it seems to be the catchphrase in Nick's podcast that the deniers have latched onto. The point was that it is prevalent enough among INDIVIDUALS in this space that Nick felt compelled to do a podcast about it, and at least half of the respondents felt compelled to talk about a negative experience with an individual. We all know that racism, sexism, etc. are perpetrated and perpetuated by individuals. I don't think there's any reputable museum or historical society or tourist railroad that would ever codify sexism into policy, so all of the arguments in this thread trying to pinpoint blame on individuals are just a deflection. We already know it's individuals, that's not the point here.

The issue, as I see it, is whether or not organizations are willing to hold individuals accountable for their actions. If a member of your group is being actively discriminatory, whether it be sexism, racism, etc., what your group does about it is perhaps what can turn an individual issue into an organizational one. Continuing to support or protect individuals that instigate this kind of behavior because of their "experience" or their "value to the group" instead of taking disciplinary action to protect the victims of their behavior sends a message that the organization itself is okay with that behavior. And if enough organizations in one hobby/industry send that message, then the issue is no longer an individual problem, it's a systemic problem.


That commenter was me. Those that are nit-picking Nick's phrasing are doing so to discredit his entire premise, which is a big part of the issue he was talking about. Frankly, it doesn't matter if the issue is "systemic" or individual - that entire argument in this thread is totally moot - it matters how your organization deals with the issue if/when it arises. If it doesn't ever arise, then good for you, you have a fantastic group of people and I'd like to learn more about your organization. But what happens if it does? Do you have a plan for how you will deal with it?

The solution? Be proactive rather than reactive. Get a Member Code of Conduct on your group's books that covers discrimination of all kinds, and have a policy in place to deal with any individual infraction that might occur. And then don't hesitate to enforce that Code of Conduct with a written disciplinary policy. The discipline for infractions must be applied evenly to anyone that doesn't hold themselves to the Code of Conduct, whether they're a new member or someone that's been a volunteer for 40 years. At that point, it doesn't matter if the issue is individual or systemic, because you have the tools and willingness to deal with it if it arises in any form.

If every group did this, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But they don't, so we are.

I don't think anybody in this thread is defending the dinosaur. But, as Rick Rowlands and others have stated before, let us deal with the problem individual directly.

What's the phrase the TSA likes to use these days? Something along the lines of "If you see something, say something"?

NEW HOPE RAILROAD
32 West Bridge Street
New Hope, PA 18938
United States (US)
Phone: 1-215-862-2332
Fax: 1-215-862-6160
Email: info@newhoperailroad.com
URL: https://www.newhoperailroad.com

Best of luck, though. His seemingly blind friends are extensive in the preservation industry. Some of these friends even see fit to hold banquets and thereby condone the sort of behavior seen in this thread. Photo attached, identities masked to protect innocent locomotives.

I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Rowlands. This would be a greatly relevant issue for the HRA to tackle. With an exceptionally talented female steam engineer and fireman on their Board, this is especially true.

This is likely one of the best and most productive discussions on this forum in recent history. Let's keep it up and remain civil. Also, much like an unsafe condition in industry, if you see it, own it. Call out those that would make others feel unwelcome, whether it be because of age, gender, race, etc.


Dennis Ryan
East Aurora, NY

Gladly.

Nobody wants women to have special treatment. A systemic issue doesn't mean everyone's sexist or even participates in it - it just means enough otherwise-good people stay silent when they see it, and are generally complacent.



There are a lot of facebook groups about railfanning and preservation where any photo with a woman in it is met with "Awooga!" or "She's probably has a penis!". I don't have examples on me, of course, and take that as you will, but i have personally observed that happening a lot - especially after events such as the all-female crew on the straus.

The thing i see is - Ross is an individual, sure, but how many people not on here share his views? How many people working with him have shrugged off what seems to me like clearly-marked sexism? That is what systemic means.

Because said actors tend to "lawyer up" very quickly to prevent people from either "defaming" their "good" name, or threaten to get said sites shut down if discussions aren't halted...

You don't have examples? I took the time to gather a few that I saw within maybe 10 minutes of searching on Facebook. Enjoy (or not) some of those comments.

I have stayed out of this thread until this moment as pictures of a great personal friend have been posted. Christene Aldez has helped me in many ways. And like the other great locomotive engineers both male and female she is one of the most humble people I know. i can remember sitting in her office when she was field safety support for BNSF and the number of fellow railroaders who would come by and say hello. Sadly some of the comments also posted above show more about the character of those making stupid comments than the person they try to speak about.

There are some incredible people of both sexes who have operated locomotives. I have had the fortune to meet a few. Discrimination of any form can come from any one. It is sad that even after the years of her and others working hard to just be given an equal opportunity, that others of both sexes still see the need to make a fuss over something that should be in the distant past of controversial issues.

Robby Peartree