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Hi

I have a few questions.
First is there a point in mid travel where were going to need to hit control ALT Delete simultaneously to reboot the system.
Second given that the speed restrictions are "constantly updating" I take the engineer is now telling the computer weather or not he can comply with the speed restriction that just was posted 10 feet in front of his location?

And finally since the the system applies the air automatically does it come with decelostats?

Robby Peartree

So, how does this system work on the 4014 and the companion diesel?

I can only speak of my experience with the PTC system of my former employer, which is the I-ETMS system.

Cycling the circuit breakers is the way to reset the system, which requires the train to be stopped.

The dispatcher calls a train that may be impacted by a new speed restriction before he/she posts it, which then forwards to the PTC system. If it will impact the train (penalty application), then the restriction is either given verbally or the train must be stopped prior to that point, if possible. If verbal, the dispatcher will not post the restriction until the train has cleared it.

I am not aware of any decelostats in use.

There is a constant yellow line (warning distance) and red line (stopping distance) in front of your train when moving. If the yellow line line crosses into the restriction, the system will give you a warning flag based on algorithms. If the red crosses into the restriction and the system determines the train will not be able to comply, that will prompt a penalty application. If an issue pops up on the screen that the red line has already passed, you will most likely receive an emergency penalty application. An example is if a signal drops in your face, or the PTC loses comm with the signal location. This happened to me once. Signal was "Clear" but PTC lost comm and threw me in emergency, as I was less than 1/2 mile from signal.

Thank you for the response. I was also reminded privately that the system developed is not dependent upon the air system used. When time permits I need to do a lot more research.

Robby Peartree

While things may be different on the system you use, I have not seen where it can tell you where other trains are nor siding lengths. I was told by one of the Rules managers that PTC will never tell you where the other trains are, especially when you are following. I also want to note that you get a 5 mile "look ahead" on the screen.



Again, your system may be different, but the alerter is not tied into the PTC in my experience, unless you are speaking in general terms outside the PTC discussion. The system I ran under, PTC gives you 2 MPH overspeed before it will ding you.



In regards to restrictions, and switch and signal status for your train, yes. I know I was able to tell what was happening to facing point switches beyond the red "fence" to get an idea as to what may be going on ahead too.

I am merely giving alternatives to what is out there. Each railroad has the ability to "customize" the PTC system for their specific needs. The manager I spoke with said the "possibilities are endless" and that changes have to be introduced in small bites because our minds cannot absorb everything at once.

Thank you Tom, for steering this thread in the direction I was interested in. Does a PTC system reduce throttle or just hit the brakes? Does it do anything with the dynamics or just the air?

Over my career, I've done some human factors engineering and perhaps what I find most interesting about the video from the BB cab was watching the home turf crew interacting, specifically the conductor apparently tracking the progress of the train via a paper list and the PTC screen. It would appear that gentleman had found himself in a very different environment then he is used to and this perhaps echoes how important it is to keep modern railroaders exposed to the steam environment.

Bob

PTC cuts off power when a penalty application occurs, I know our dynamics would not cut off if engaged. This is on diesel locomotives of course.

Crews still carry paper copies of their "orders", which are also listed on the PTC screen for reference. Shouldn't be any issues with environment, other than the type of locomotive he is riding.

Bob so far I have only witnessed one event when PTC took over the train. That was a penalty application for going 4MPH over the speed limit (40MPH) due to slack run in. In that event the locomotives went to idle. It should be noted we were running in dynamic braking at the time. PTC already knows the length, speed, grade, and stopping distance of your train when it gives a penalty application. In this case the calculations using a penalty brake (which is a full brake application) with out dynamics were correct as the train stopped pretty quickly. Had PTC allowed a penalty application along with dynamic braking it probably would have led to a pretty severe slack run.

The slack run in just with a penalty brake was a pretty good jolt. I can't remember if exceptions are made for dynamic braking on long coal trains or similar going down long grades but I would expect they have that data built in when a penalty application is made. In either case the program knows how long that train will stop with or with out dynamic braking, and which one is the best to slow it down the fastest.


BnOTolSub...
Yes you are correct that PTC is often tailored to the railroad it is operating on. Obviously the more you are adding to the program the more it is going to cost you yearly. I am operating on Union Pacific main lines and I am pretty sure they have all the bells and whistles when it comes to PTC. I work as a mechanical technician so I had the painful 4 day PTC course which explains every wire, pin, switch, etc. to the smallest detail. It was a grueling 4 days that I still haven't recovered from. Maybe I can get some photos of the PTC route so people in here can better understand the program.

Yes we can see other trains if we are following a train or if a train is passing us. This shows up just like a occupied track on a dispatch center.

The alerter is built into the PTC system showing you the "warning brake application" (along with the seconds countdown) if the alerter button is not pushed once it starts to sound off.

One thing that I found interesting is the red fence that BnOTolSub mentioned. When your programed route ends you see a bunch of diagonal red lines on the screen which you should not enter. This very much looks like a computer game.

I found this video which gives a good view of the PTC screen to the upper right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btkCQTP5GpU In blue you can see the grade which is descending and mile post (19-26). The green line is the track you are on along with the color of the signal (clear). Small white objects next to green line are signals. The SD in white is telling you the stopping distance for your train as you are speeding up or slowing down. WD is wayside detector??? The vertical semi transparent white bar is your train as you are traveling down the tracks.

In the video the train is approaching a red fence due to a track being out of service. Since a train can not pass a red fence the PTC program is automatically putting the train into a penalty application. Note how the stopping distance is changing as it slows down and gets closer to the red fence.

The data to the left of the PTC screen is normally not shown and this is the data going into the data recorder on the locomotive. The screen to the bottom left shows your locomotives, loads, empties, length, weight, etc., as well as speed and time of the penalty application towards the end of the video.

According to this new article from UP, the diesel is currently needed for for PTC operation, but they are going to make it a standalone system:
https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/in ... 210819.htm

Based on what I have read here and a couple other places, I'm guessing the diesel has a modified tracker/identifier which moves the front of the diesel locomotive to the front of the 4014 in the PTC system. Now, is the PTC screen on the 4014 hardwired from the diesel? Do both the 4014 engineer and the diesel engineer have the ability to use/acknowledge the prompts?

Putting the PTC in the 4014 herself should allow UP to run it unassisted… which should shut all of the “it’s a fake” crowd.

In a diesel, with all the electronic controls, in the event of a violation of the system, the system will put your train into emergency, which effectively shuts off throttle control.

With the steam locomotive and totally mechanical throttle control... throttle lever... they'll probably just have to settle for a magnet valve on the brake plumbing that the PTC system can open to put the brakes into emergency. Wouldn't do anything to disable the throttle, that wouldn't be possible given it's mechanical, not electronic, nature.

An interesting side not to how PTC see's all and knows all, on my particular division of railroad, there have been at least 2 crews pulled out of service for "getting out of the limits of their track warrant".

It wasn't their head end... there's no way PTC will let you go "out" of your limits (limits of your track warrant). If you aren't slowing down and preparing to stop... it WILL stop you.

What got these crews was "rolling up" the limits of their track warrant behind their train and not being actually clear of those limits. Both trains were stopped. Somehow, the conductor releasing the limits behind the train wasn't taking into consideration the actual length of his train and where exactly they were setting... he gave up track that the rear of his train was still setting on. (Train was over 2 miles long and conductor got complacent and just figured it was only 2 miles.. didn't consult the paperwork.)
As soon as the dispatcher issued the train the new track warrant and the crew pushed the button on the PTC screen to release the old warrant "POW", the PTC system puts the train in emergency and they're fired for "getting out of their limits".

From my perspective the really important news here is that the UP tech. team has figured out how to install the whole PTC "stuff" directly on the 4014 thus eliminating the need for it to be riding in a following dismal.

That's great news for the future of mainline steam as it's one less reason that can be used to deny access to the mainline for otherwise qualified mainline steamers.

A very significant development. Many thanks UP.

Ross Rowland

Does that version of PTC have the bell or whistle that tells the length of the train to the crew?
Is the firing penalty universal? Might a different road hire that conductor because the error is only a suspension offense there?