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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:50 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:23 am
Posts: 46
Location: Boston, Massachusetts.
scratchyX1 wrote:
Was this the locomotive that was being tested with biochar instead of coal?


Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:20 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6464
Location: southeastern USA
Kelly Anderson wrote:
It's my understanding that brick arches are counter productive in oil burners. The (nearly) standard setup with the burner under the throat sheet, aimed at the door sheet, causes the flame path to take the same route through the firebox as it would with an arch in place.


Might want to have a discussion with our Canadian Pacific brothers who placed the burner under the firedoor and a brick arch over the firepan.

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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 1209
Location: B'more Maryland
Just look at those chevrons.

Take THAT 787!

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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 2559
Location: The Atlantic Coast Line
Quote:
Just look at those chevrons.

Take THAT 787!


Am I the only one confused by this reference?


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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 1676
Location: Byers, Colorado
As Ed Dickens explained it to me, the Canadan oil firing system was developed to allow the easy conversion back and forth between oil and coal fuel to take advantage of the changes in relative fuel costs. When using oil, the flash wall is built over the throat sheet, with the burner pointed at the center of it. The flame path reverses, going back toward the door underneath the arches, then it reverses again going over them and through the tubes. This makes three passes through the firebox. Never tried it myself, but he tells me it works pretty well, and that they considered it for #4014, but decided to stay with UP practice in the interest of historic authenticity.

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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 733
wesp wrote:
Quote:
Just look at those chevrons.

Take THAT 787!


Am I the only one confused by this reference?

The chevrons at the end of the blast pipe extension serve to reduce the turbulent flow at the interface. This can be commonly seen on the 787 Dreamliner aircraft engine fan housings where it is used to quiet jet engine noise. It has been a life time since I took Mass, Heat, and Fluid Transfer and Statistical Thermodynamics, but I think it makes the velocity differential gradient between the steam coming out of the blast pipe and the combustion gases coming out of the tubes/flues more gradual. So now instead of gases with differing velocities shearing each other at the point of contact and tearing at each other and creating turbulence, the chevrons create a mixing layer so the transition from one velocity to another is not as abrupt.

So it should make the exhaust noise a bit quieter but I'm not sure how it impacts efficiency. Does the mixing induced by the chevrons increase or decrease the uptake of combustion gases by the blast pipe steam as compared to the mixing that occurs in a more typical design when the two flows meet and mix in the turbulence created?

This is an interesting idea. These guys really have MIND POWER!


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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 2559
Location: The Atlantic Coast Line
Quote:
The chevrons at the end of the blast pipe extension serve to reduce the turbulent flow at the interface. This can be commonly seen on the 787 Dreamliner aircraft engine fan housings where it is used to quiet jet engine noise.


Thank you from the back of the room in Blast Pipe 101.

Wesley


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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:50 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6464
Location: southeastern USA
Yes, but the sound of the exhaust beats is part of what makes steam an experience instead of just something pulling up there. Not in any way unappreciative of the brain power involved in the engineering..... sustainable steam is something I've been tinkering with for a while now.

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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:52 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 733
In thinking about this a bit further, my unverified inclination is that the chevrons will increase the mixing of the combustion gas from the tubes/flues into the blast pipe steam stream at the slight expense of a modest increase in blast pipe back pressure. I'd love to hear from someone with a better more recent grasp of this. Thanks.

Now if I could only remember the name of the Lone Ranger's nephew's horse!


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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 1676
Location: Byers, Colorado
Maybe they're still tinkering with their setup. I notice they hadn't installed a blower yet. Wonder what the smokebox interior will look like in a few months...

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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:32 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2477
.


Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Mon Aug 26, 2024 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:01 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 1043
Location: NJ
I posted something back in December on this (Oil burner design thread) citing the Morris County Central engines, each of which had, at one time, two burners. Glad to see that Everett 11 got a very conventional installation, should work well.


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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 1676
Location: Byers, Colorado
We had 16 Krupp 2-8-2s in Guatemala, originally equiped with three burners, placed at the front of the firebox and aimed at the flash wall. The oldtimers said that system worked very well, but they eventually replaced it with components salvaged from retired Baldwins due to the lack of any spares from Krupp.

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 Post subject: Re: Everett Railroad 11 converted from coal (back) oil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:26 pm
Posts: 258
Hopefully they'll have the time and money to do some before and after testing. This crown like nozzle is definitely a departure from the Porta type nozzles. It is interesting that people are still inventing new steam locomotive exhaust nozzle designs.


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