I posted this on another forum but I thought I would also post it here to see if anyone might have information or thoughts.

Since the first photograph I saw of the heavyweight era tail sign of the 20th Century Limited many decades ago I have been fascinated by how different it was from most other tail signs/drumheads. Over the course of time (mainly from photographs in Lucius Beebe's THE TRAINS WE RODE) I discovered all of the NYC tail signs were very different from the standard reverse painted glass in a metal drum or box with lights behind it. While they have glass over them the train name is spelled out in individually lighted letters that look to be attached to a threaded stud on the back plate of the sign with a wing nut. The photograph below of the COMMODORE VANDERBILT sign clearly shows the wing nuts. My interest in the details of these signs was renewed recently when I was asked a question about how these were lighted. Then a friend sent me the photo below of Irene Dunn on the platform of the Century showing better details of the sign than I had seen before. Seeing the closer details it occurred to me that this was similar to theater marquee letters from the time period - before plastic backlighted signs with plastic letters. The theater marquees appear to have moveable metal channel letters with either small individual bulbs or some form of bent tube lights in the channel. From looking at old theater photographs it appears - whatever they were - they could create an infinite variety of words, phrases, names and titles on the marquees in lighted individual letters in the days before the plastic back lighted marquees. There had to be a way to provide electricity to these individual letters and I am wondering if what the NYC used for the tail signs was an adaptation of this system? I would make the assumption that the electricity was supplied to the letters through the threaded studs that would have had wiring attached to the back side of them. It looks like the bulbs in the Irene Dunn photo were the bent tubes but other photographs that are obviously older show individual bulbs. This raises lots of questions - the individual bulb letters are simple - lots of little bulbs and sockets but then there is the other style - were there bent tube incandescent bulbs that had long filaments with spaced-out bundles of filament to create points of light inside the tube? Could they be custom-made or bent to any letter shape or size? It looks like this system could be had in any style, size and configuration the railroad wanted. I am assuming there was a company or perhaps several companies that supplied this style of signage - my search has turned up exactly nothing.

I have included a photo of an earlier 20th Century Limited tail sign showing the individual small bulbs (I think). I will say that there seems to be something casting light around the outside edges of the letters - reflection of the flash bulb perhaps?

Lots of questions: Is anyone familiar with who supplied the NYC with these? Are any of them left in a collection somewhere? Is there a known story of how they came about - what led the NYC to diverge from the standard reverse painted glass backlit drumhead? Did all of the bright marquee lights of Broadway give them the idea? Who made these marquee letters? Was it a patented system?

I keep digging and have reached out to one of the present-day companies that specializes in vintage theater marquee restoration to see what they might know.

When I look closely at the Commodore Vanderbilt photo, I cannot see how an incandescent lamp could be made with such sharp glass tubing bends. And how would you thread the filament into the glass body? Impossible, I would think.

Instead, I think of "gas-discharge" lighting. In the vernacular, it is often called "neon lighting". Gas-discharge lights can be made with quite complex bends and made tightly-packed.

The trailing car on the varnish likely had a DC power generator for its lighting and perhaps other appurtenances. Powering a gas-discharge sign would require a suitable DC-to-high-voltage-AC converter - something well within the technology of the day. (Just ask Tesla.)

Bob Milhaupt

I agree that it would be very difficult to make filament bulbs bent like that and my first thought was neon - however - normally the light from a neon tube doesn't have the points of light in it that is shown on these tail signs. The light is even and continuous. So what is creating that effect?

These cars had 32 volt DC generators and batteries to provide constant power. There was usually an single outlet on the side of the observation railing post to plug in the tail sign/drumhead.

OK, this is just a crazy theory with absolutely nothing to back it up.

But, purely based on looking at the images, I'm wondering if possibly these work like the old "Lite-brite" toys? The lighting is behind that dark background and these puncture it and the light comes through the "bulbs" that are actually glass diffusers not bulbs?

If so, that would mean you could change the names on them.

Again, I have zero basis for this theory, just wondering.

The first picture (of the woman on the platform) supports Bob's theory -- if you closely, you will see that the letters are attached to a box that is thick enough to have bulbs inside it.

I think these letters are polished Plexiglass (Perspex to you Brits) which dates to 1933, with bulbs installed in holes drilled in the back of the letters. This would account for both the points of light and the edge lit effect of the polished facets on the edges of the raised letters. The back lit effect is much like the "cat's eye" reflectors that used to be used on crossing gates and crossbucks, without the need for a separate light source to reflect, while the edge facets give the letters more body. In all, a very modern composition.

The sign box isn't very thick when you consider the frame that holds the glass and then the depth of the letters. I suppose it could have had lights inside it but then that doesn't explain the bent glass tubes inside the channel letters. The points of light in the letters are quite bright given this photo was taken in low light conditions with a strong flash.

It is possible that the construction changed over time. My Plexiglass comments were based on the nighttime shot that only showed points of light. The close up of the D looks like a "neon" tube in a white painted box the shape of the letter. "Neon" lights will glow white if filled with CO2, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_lighting
The New York Central System Historical Society has been scanning all sorts of drawings in their collection, perhaps they have shop drawings of the tail signs. https://nycshs.org/

It is possible that the construction changed over time. My Plexiglass comments were based on the nighttime shot that only showed points of light. The close up of the D looks like a "neon" tube in a white painted box the shape of the letter. "Neon" lights will glow white if filled with CO2, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_lighting
The New York Central System Historical Society has been scanning all sorts of drawings in their collection, perhaps they have shop drawings of the tail signs. https://nycshs.org/

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Dennis Storzek

That is a good idea about the NYCHS - I will contact them.

I definitely think the photos show that the construction of the signs changed over time - likely as the technology changed. I did find out that at some point in time the changeable letters for theater marquees became available as neon (still channel letters). The only issue that I have with this is the string and points of light that are definitely shown in the photo of the "D" - that looks like a glowing filament. Neon tubes have an even glow.

I sure wish one of these was still around!

That is a true statement. But it might not apply directly in these photographs.

Taking pictures in a murky train station would likely require one or more bright light sources - quite commonly the "flash bulb".

Evidence in the Irene Dunn image suggests that a flash source was used. Consider Irene's raised right hand and the shadow it casts in the area above the seated woman's left shoulder. From that shadow, one can make inferences about the basic location(s) of the primary light source(s), the relative brightnesses of those source(s) and the "ambient" light level.

My father was a press photographer for many years, and he taught me at quite a young age that a photographer's flash equipment can be very successful at "washing out" other light sources. A gas-discharge lamp could easily be "washed out" by the brightness of the photographer's flash. And that flash could easily reflect off of the features of the glass envelope and those structures which support it and surround it. I suspect these effects of flash photography may be influencing the interpretation of at least some of the images you have presented.

Bob Milhaupt

Kinda looks like channelled letters with clear plastic rods, Bakelite or similar, in them lit with small bulbs. The whole thing looks too shallow to be a light box. Bakelite has been around since 1910 or so, in everything from clear to translucent white to to opaque black and all the colors in between.

These look very similar to lighted letters used on Broadway theater marquees of the first half of the 20th century. The construction of the individual letters was of sheet metal wired with clear light bulbs and having flanges sides to reflect the light back inside the letter.