Yeah, ya got me there. It is, however, an excellent example of thread drift, though. I am curious as to where it goes next.

Before we circle back to RR employees fleeing the industry, let me clarify Pennsylvania fuel taxes. They are equal in all counties. I don't know where a previous poster got the idea any part of the Commonwealth gets a tax break.

Mogas is taxed at $0.576/gallon, Avgas at $0.060/gallon, Undyed (highway) diesel and kero at $0.741/gallon. IN EVERY COUNTY.

https://www.revenue.pa.gov/Tax%20Rates/ ... Rates.aspx

Phil Mulligan

As to RR employees fleeing the industry, I understand CSX is paying $25.00/hour to trainee conductors.

SEPTA is advertising for Transit Police Trainees:

Starting rate for six months of Police Academy - $56,507 annually; after training to 12 months of service - $62,379 annually; 13 to 24 months - $71,011 annually; after 24 months of service - $74,588 annually. Contractual longevity payments will take effect after these raises. Additionally, SEPTA provides very competitive benefit and retirement programs.

You know you'll be in one of 5 counties in SE PA; the Hedge Funds that own the Class 1's aren't trying to furlough you as soon as they can.

SEPTA's also looking for Regional Rail Conductor/Engineer Trainees but pay is less: Pay rate is $21.76/hr. Increase to $22.91/hr. after one year. Within two years of hire, all Locomotive/Conductor trainees will enter a program to become full time Conductors or Locomotive Engineers, depending on the needs of SEPTA.

Phil Mulligan

"This revenue also supports:

http://rideata.com/potter-county

And https://www.gobesttransit.com/

BeST Transit is a public transportation provider that features routes in three northern Pennsylvania counties. It provides bus and paratransit service for Bradford, Sullivan, and Tioga Counties.

I'm also fascinated to learn that the millions of residents in Philadelphia and it's surrounding suburbs do not pay fuel taxes, and are subsidized by the 16,685 residents of Potter County PA.

Brian"

And I'm fascinated by that sort of obtuseness. Is there rail service using $10M boutique locomotives in Coudersport?

The location of the motorist is tangential to the fact that the person operating a personal vehicle is having their costs increased to provide a reduced costs for someone else in a bait and switch. Philadelphia drivers shouldn't have to pay for SEPTA either, but they do because the gas tax is siphoned off for the MTA's.

The putative reason for the increased taxes was to resolve a "deferred maintenance" issue with roads and bridges. We're still backlogged and still using these bizarre financing schemes. On occasion, I visit friends in Virginia and the last thing I do before I leave Virginia is gas up, as it's noticeably less for gas there.


https://transportationtodaynews.com/new ... intenance/


We have enough fake taxes in Pennsylvania that never seem to be provide resolution for the purpose enacted. Pennsylvanians are still paying an 18% emergency tax on alcohol and the emergency was the 1936 Johnstown flood.





You can't complain about employee recruitment or retention without understanding that these decisions aren't made in a vacuum and can't be considered in isolation, no matter how much F84.0 stammering Rypners do. If you impose other costs on the roads, i.e., for PTC or other compliance costs, then there are "income and substitution" effects.

While there's a long history of railroads engaging in gratuitously antagonistic and counterproductive employee relations (the notorious offering of crews bags instead of installed cab toilets comes to mind);

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... ?2,1821070

there's also factors like imposed mandates that affect the pay and benefits of the staff.

Wow. Some people will look for any convoluted reasoning they can to blame government for anyones problems.

PTC implementation costs are not the reason railroad employees are seeing their quality of life under constant attack.

"Convoluted reasoning", from somebody who actually gave a nod to socialism and actually employed a classic red herring fallacy in his response?

F84.0

You do realize that the US economic system has been a blend of socialism and capitalism since... well, since before socialism was actually a coined term, right?

I'm actually somewhat concerned you don't, and just see it as a word used by whatever tribal publications you consume as boogeyman sleeping under your bed.

That's not a helpful way to view the world when you need to navigate it.

Just two quick points and then I’ll leave the fray.

1. Railroads have maximized their profits and dividends for their investors. Period. This was accomplished via poor customer service, slashing their work force and raising prices. Here’s a little primer: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-08-03/railroads-like-union-pacific-and-bsnf-get-off-track-in-focusing-on-margins

2. Please stop throwing around F84.0 and similar terms and using such a broad brush to do so. I personally know two RYPN contributors that are on the spectrum and I guarantee you that they do NOT appreciate anyone throwing those terms around loosely to insult others.
Just. Don’t. Do. It.

Many of my friends and aquitences on class ones tell me two things-

If a deal isn't struck and they strike, then congress forces them back, a vast majority of them say they and a good number of their colleagues intend to simply quit and walk away.

If a deal is struck, they know 1/4-1/3 of their colleagues intend to get the back pay, THEN walk off the job over the conditions.

One friend hasn't been able to mark off for 7 months. They've held his job over his head, but he's about ready to just walk out with 12 years in.

Then please help me understand.

The Gross Domestic Product of Potter County Pennsylvania has averaged less than $1 Million for quite some time:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDPALL42105

I assume the fuel tax revenue for the county would be a relatively small fraction of the GDP. I don't understand how Potter County is buying $10 Million Sprinters for SEPTA.

That number wouldn't even qualify as a rounding error compared to the fuel taxes the Flatlanders pay. The GDP of just Philadelphia County alone has been over $100 million.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDPALL42101

Perhaps someone else would like to research the Pennsylvania only side of Philadelphia's standard Metropolitan area - it's complicated since the Philadelphia SMA includes parts of New Jersey and Delaware.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NGMP37980

I don't understand the mentality that transfers a tiny revenue stream from a rural area mingling in with a tidal wave of downstate taxes being identified as the funding source.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Whether or not Transportation funding should help pay for transit is a separate issue.

Since highways get more than half their funding from non transportation sources - such as property taxes, IMHO one is off to a weak start in demanding highway only funding.

Like it or not, government intervention in the transportation sector has made it impossible for privately owned mass transit to succeed. Yet in many places the "Just One More Lane Bro" meme is an utter failure. When roads are at overcapacity, the transit share does not have to be very large to make a huge difference in commuting trip time. So transit does benefit automobile commuters.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Have folks here checked out Class I attendance policies such as BN's Hi-Viz? Even with the recent minor changes, it's no wonder employees are ready to leave the industry.

Brian

I'm sorry, was this unclear?

"The location of the motorist is tangential to the fact that the person operating a personal vehicle is having their costs increased to provide a reduced costs for someone else in a bait and switch. Philadelphia drivers shouldn't have to pay for SEPTA either, but they do because the gas tax is siphoned off for the MTA's."

"When roads are at overcapacity, the transit share does not have to be very large to make a huge difference in commuting trip time. So transit does benefit automobile commuters."

After belaboring the idea that a rural county is so small that geographic cross subsidization is irrelevant, (forgetting that all of Pennsylvania is paying this premium)
you now explicitly make the case that rural localities are paying for the convenience of city drivers. This is not only unfair, it doesn't allow for the sort of economic calculation where consumers make cost benefit analysis that mediate the cost benefit needed to approach optimal outcomes. Tolling with peak load pricing does exactly that, as it encourages travel off-peak and telecommuting.

https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/how ... ic-reforms

If Philadelphia has a congestion problem, then Philadelphia should establish peak load pricing and tolling using EZ pass.

Of course there are those that don't regard congestion as a problem.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... congestion

How is it possible that the nickle that a Potter County person pays in taxes winds up paying for a locomotive used over 250 miles away? THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID. Potter county needs to spend a bunch of nickles just clearing snow and ice in the winter compared to downstate, yet according to your own words they are paying for Sprinters for SEPTA.

Especially when folks living within 25 miles of said locomotive usage are paying many, many, many more nickles?

> you now explicitly make the case that rural localities are paying for the convenience of city drivers.

Say What?

But while you are there, I'm all for a mileage & weight tolling for every last inch of dirt, gravel, tar and chip, piecrust, asphalt, concrete - cowpath on up to superhighway - and beyond. Of course the reality is such a proposal would be more suicidal politically than Tom Corbett's fuel tax increase.

Brian


Brian

You do NOT maximize your profits and dividends with poor customer service. The author attempts to make this case, while also acknowledging that without improved customer service, they will bleed off customers. Oh, look carloads are dropping.

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3870973-u ... 7Cline%3A2

And if the share price goes down, raising your buck and a quarter dividend a few cents won't help. NS was at one point in the upper 290's, it's now in the low 250's.

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3863322-n ... 7Cline%3A3

Now I know this might come as a surprise to some but the actual job of management is to maximize shareholder wealth. It's actually their legal obligation. It's actually debatable that they do this consistently. CSX' board for example, was astronomically stupid IMNHO to retain EHH and pay off his non-compete given his age and health.

And while you are looking contemptuously at "investors", probably want to look in a mirror, since NSC has a lot of instititutional ownership, so take a look in the holdings of the ETF's and mutual funds in your 401k. You might just be an investor.

Full disclosure: I bet against NSC in early July. I sold a Sep 16 155 cash covered put (meaning I anticipated the possibility of the stock dropping precipitously as did others) and rode it down until the price dictated I closed the option for five bucks.




Be assured I'll give your demand all the consideration it merits.

Well after once being derided for inferring that this was common on here; now I'm derided for because of anecdotal evidence that it is common. Oh well.

Deep interest in trains, employment in IT and interest in socialism are correlated with ASD.
The first two attributes are not character flaws.

The neuroatypical people (there's a lot in accounting, plus a lot of passive aggression and other behaviors that are character issues) know understand their thinking, its benefits and its limitations.

The alternative when somebody gives a wink to socialism is to assume a deeply flawed character and manifest ignorance, now would that be "nice"? You know you and I might view somebody if somebody suggested we give national socialism another whirl? I extend that to "socialists of all parties".

"compared to downstate, yet according to your own words they are paying for Sprinters for SEPTA.

Especially when folks living within 25 miles of said locomotive usage are paying many, many, many more nickles?"

> you now explicitly make the case that rural localities are paying for the convenience of city drivers.

I already said geography was tangential, good grief, don't you understand the idea of a rhetorical device? If SEPTA riders were assessed a "transportation tax" to fund Potter County winter road maintenance, that would also be objectionable.

As for the source and use of your nickels, money is fungible.

The point is people who are not benefitting, either because they are physically removed or simply because they chose not to consume shouldn't pay for others who do. It's unfair and distortive.

Point to one society throughout all of history where microtransaction "pay per use" existed, let alone worked.

Do you think that we were far better when every road of any substance was a turnpike? Or when houses burned down because the owners hadn't subscribed to a fire department?

Or maybe, just maybe, our national economy experienced a period of unequaled growth when taxes were relatively high, there was a higher level of investment in "common good" things and like strong labor unions. This resulted in things like the interstate highway system, rural electrification and the idea of "weekends". But I suppose you'll come up with some example of how those are not examples of the "socialism" that you seem to think is only appreciated by degenerates.

The world is not black and white. The options are not limited to "The Soviet Union or Somalia". The United States, for its entire history, has existed on a continuum between pure capitalism and socialism. Anyone who claims otherwise has no serious business talking about public policy or history.