I have been reading with interest the many comments on the CB&Q wood car for sale, modified as the Sandwich Diner.

I think it a worthy goal and probably a very necessary one for preservationists to carefully consider new acquisitions and 'projects'. Because a 'project' is surely what they will become.

We should be thankful that in the OLD DAYS those that went before us went out and got a lot of historic equipment with little or no resources and that somehow these were in fact saved 'enough' to still be here today.

But today, the pickings are slimmer, or the better items are newer and do not have the allure of an older car or the nostalgia factor. Who sees the romance in a GP-40-2?? Okay, I know these are disappearing and we should start to think in current terms too.

But how do we make the choices and justify efforts to save equipment today? I submit that almost anything can be justified and a story told based on its value in a historical sense. Yes, we all gravitate to a "RARE" item, and in many cases ooh and ahh because it was one of a kind, had double ended flamdoodles, ran on an obscure branch, came from a builder no longer there (not many are), or is the only known item of its kind left.

But I submit that there can be a case made for an item because of its commonality as well. How many thousands, tens of thousands, (or more) simple two bay open hoppers served the country and rail system for so many years - and yet have essentially disappeared with few if any preserved? Since they were ubiquitous they do not have the flash, but did they not become part of the transportaion mosaic by the very nature of their numbers and the role they served? Of course many other examples exist, but perhaps food for thought.

Many of our preservation efforts are borderline capitalized and the ongoing struggle for funds is a way of life. Should we be taking on new projects or try to focus on what we have now to assure that they are saved? An ongoing conflict exists between romance and reality. But romance fades over time and reality is what you wake up to every morning.

So my takeaway is that a new project today requires funding and a plan to first stabilize the equipment to prevent further deterioration, and then a realistic assessment that in fact the restoration CAN be accomplished, perhaps within most of the time many of us have left.

I suppose many will see the above ramblings as fightin' words - -

Bob Kutella

68trolley@comcast.net

Hate to disappoint you, but these are NOT fighting words. They make sense. We have several pieces in our collection that we saved only to now wonder what we can ever do with them. For example, our 1880s PRR business Car Trenton #3999. Its very rough, but has potential and is a piece of local history. But we will most likely just store it away in our car barn where it takes up valuable space. We have a 25 ton Whitcomb that we can't seem to give away. 42" gauge Plymouth anyone? How about a standard gauge Mack?

Before we accepted the donation in 2000 of the CP&W train (two coaches and a vulcan) we layed out a careful plan on what would be done with those cars and funding sources, and we are sticking with that plan today.

We did say no once. And the car in question was bull dozed by the owner. That's the down side.

J.R.

> I have been reading with interest the many
> comments on the CB&Q wood car for sale,
> modified as the Sandwich Diner.

> I think it a worthy goal and probably a very
> necessary one for preservationists to
> carefully consider new acquisitions and
> 'projects'. Because a 'project' is surely
> what they will become.

> We should be thankful that in the OLD DAYS
> those that went before us went out and got a
> lot of historic equipment with little or no
> resources and that somehow these were in
> fact saved 'enough' to still be here today.

> But today, the pickings are slimmer, or the
> better items are newer and do not have the
> allure of an older car or the nostalgia
> factor. Who sees the romance in a GP-40-2??
> Okay, I know these are disappearing and we
> should start to think in current terms too.

> But how do we make the choices and justify
> efforts to save equipment today? I submit
> that almost anything can be justified and a
> story told based on its value in a
> historical sense. Yes, we all gravitate to a
> "RARE" item, and in many cases ooh
> and ahh because it was one of a kind, had
> double ended flamdoodles, ran on an obscure
> branch, came from a builder no longer there
> (not many are), or is the only known item of
> its kind left.

> But I submit that there can be a case made
> for an item because of its commonality as
> well. How many thousands, tens of thousands,
> (or more) simple two bay open hoppers served
> the country and rail system for so many
> years - and yet have essentially disappeared
> with few if any preserved? Since they were
> ubiquitous they do not have the flash, but
> did they not become part of the
> transportaion mosaic by the very nature of
> their numbers and the role they served? Of
> course many other examples exist, but
> perhaps food for thought.

> Many of our preservation efforts are
> borderline capitalized and the ongoing
> struggle for funds is a way of life. Should
> we be taking on new projects or try to focus
> on what we have now to assure that they are
> saved? An ongoing conflict exists between
> romance and reality. But romance fades over
> time and reality is what you wake up to
> every morning.

> So my takeaway is that a new project today
> requires funding and a plan to first
> stabilize the equipment to prevent further
> deterioration, and then a realistic
> assessment that in fact the restoration CAN
> be accomplished, perhaps within most of the
> time many of us have left.

> I suppose many will see the above ramblings
> as fightin' words - -

> Bob Kutella


http://www.njmt.org
jrmay@njmt.org

> An ongoing conflict exists between
> romance and reality. But romance fades over
> time and reality is what you wake up to
> every morning.

I won't dispute the conclusion that everyday items ought to be saved, but I'm not sure that it should necessarily be at the expense of more "romantic" ones. Does romance really fade over time? Two centuries hence, will schoolchildren more likely be reading about unit coal trains or Casey Jones? I would guess the latter, although the former undoubtedly has had more of an impact both on railroading and on the economy. Is a string of restored boxcars, which to the layperson look exactly like the ones they have to wait every day at the railroad crossing for, more valuable than an open-platform obs that reminds them of Theodore Roosevelt or Harry Truman campaigning? I'm not sure, myself. But I don't think people will be interested in something just because a faded sign hung from a grab-iron tells them they *ought* to be interested in it. Just something to think about.

Frank Hicks

F-Hicks@wiu.edu

> I won't dispute the conclusion that everyday
> items ought to be saved, but I'm not sure
> that it should necessarily be at the expense
> of more "romantic" ones. Does
> romance really fade over time? Two centuries
> hence, will schoolchildren more likely be
> reading about unit coal trains or Casey
> Jones? I would guess the latter, although
> the former undoubtedly has had more of an
> impact both on railroading and on the
> economy. Is a string of restored boxcars,
> which to the layperson look exactly like the
> ones they have to wait every day at the
> railroad crossing for, more valuable than an
> open-platform obs that reminds them of
> Theodore Roosevelt or Harry Truman
> campaigning? I'm not sure, myself. But I
> don't think people will be interested in
> something just because a faded sign hung
> from a grab-iron tells them they *ought* to
> be interested in it. Just something to think
> about.

Good points, but I have always questioned the propensity of museums to grab every business car, Pullman and other fancy cars they can, when the vast majority of travelers never saw or rode in one. Most travel was by coach, yet coaches are often poorly represented or not represented at all in collections.

There aren't that many people left who thing of either Roosevelt in terms of trains they rode or the cars they rode in. Many fallen flags can be represented well by restored freight equipment. It's also instructive to restore, say, a 1930's era 36 or 40-foot, wood sided boxcar and display it coupled to a restored 1960's era 50 or 60 foot boxcar with cushion undeframe, load dividers, plug doors, etc. (or an 89-foot auto parts box), to show that things HAVE changed.

Same can be done with a 50-ton boxcar equipped with grain doors coupled to a 100-ton covered hopper for grain.

I think it all boils down to whether we are trying to live out a fantasy of being railroad presidents (business cars and private cars), high-income travelers (Pullmans, diners, lounges), or trying to show what it REALLY was like for the vast majority. Remember, in the pre-war era, most Americans didn't travel at all, or very little.

I agree with Bob's comments and am glad to see a discussion on this subject. I posted my response to the CB&Q diner hoping to get people thinking about what is worth spending the time and resources restoring and what projects should be (regretfully) passed up.

Even if you start with a car that is mostly complete a considerable amount of effort is required to get it to the condition it was in when operated back in the "golden age". My organization has a couple of passenger cars that were in MOW service and I can honestly say that they have little chance of ever being fully restored. One is an ex-WP coach that the original seats, light fixtures and both bathrooms with the corresponding bulkheads are missing. Everything else is basically there. Unfortunately there isn't a handy parts source that we can call and get replacements for what's missing. So we watch e-bay and other internet sites plus ask around to see if anyone has what we need. When we find the parts we then have to pay collector prices for them. So you can see that what looks like a simple restoration quickly gets expensive.

If you start with a car that is basically a body with nothing else you have to find all the parts. Trucks, draft gear, brake system and all interior fittings all add up and make the final cost prohibitive, if it is even possible to find the parts required. These kind of details can bog down a restoration that was started with a lot of enthusiasm. My recommendation is to start with a car that is already mostly complete and go from there. I assure you that the labor and costs required will still be more than expected.

On freight cars, our organization has just had some of the members complaining about the expense of getting old boxcars and other freight equipment – equipment that can’t be used in our revenue passenger trains. The rebuttal arguments pointed out that the boxcars are rolling storage that gets material off the ground, can be used in photo freights and since we are a museum and the cars are historic they deserve preservation too. It is interesting that every boxcar that we have brought into the yard has been filled with stuff, even a wood side car with no wood on the sides that is in the process of restoration. Every time I go to work on it I have to spend an hour or more unloading all the junk that well meaning people put in there. What it comes down to is that railroad museums need freight cars too and a string of historic freight cars look a lot better behind a steam engine than high cube modern cars

By the way Bob, the Niles Canyon Railway has just restored an ex-GN, Sierra Railway two bay hopper.

http://www.abana.org/affiliates/affiliate_list.html
jmann@asyst.com

> If you start with a car that is basically a
> body with nothing else you have to find all
> the parts. Trucks, draft gear, brake system
> and all interior fittings all add up and
> make the final cost prohibitive, if it is
> even possible to find the parts required.
> These kind of details can bog down a
> restoration that was started with a lot of
> enthusiasm. My recommendation is to start
> with a car that is already mostly complete
> and go from there. I assure you that the
> labor and costs required will still be more
> than expected.

No arguement there ... except ...you will have written off most of Ohios Traction History and left us with a handful of intact cars that truely only show a small segment of what was an industry covering the state. Something special happened when the CD&M redbird was brought back to life for a short time and the gang in Worthington showed what could be done with a cottage, a lot of sweat and determination. There ain't much left and our track record to date has been lackluster but we are still out there trying to preserve an all but forgotten page of history.

PS: Thanks Bob, but those are "thinkin words" not fightin' words.

lamontdc@adelphia.net

>

> By the way Bob, the Niles Canyon Railway has
> just restored an ex-GN, Sierra Railway two
> bay hopper.

Good work on the hopper!! I used that as just one example on a long list of 'forgotten' cars. I am very glad you were able to do this.

As Collection Curator for Freight Cars at IRM some of you may suspect I have or had a hidden agenda. A few weeks ago we ran a 19 car freight train behind our Frisco Russian decapod and visitors were massed along trackside to see the spectacle and hear the old girl bark. They were even parked at our rural road crossings off site to try to get better or unobstructed photos.

Yes the steam was part of the show but I received many comments about the freight cars. Over the past five years or so we have done over a dozen of these cars cosmetically and paintwise and they all bear authentic complete lettering. The other cars in the train were not 'brand new' but all of them recieved a complete inspection and maintenance using a checklist we developed - about 60 items for mechanical and safety related issues.

Not a perfect system but one we feel is necessary even if the cars are coupled and moved only a few times per year in train service. Looking at one decrepit freight car may not inspire much romance, but a whole string of 'em does rekindle memories. And if we are (collectively as preservationists) to represent ourselves as a true 'museum' they have a place in railroad history.

I do not mean to imply that all preservation groups go out and start acquiring and painting boxcars since in many if not most cases they may not be appropriate to the collection focus or mission of a group. Which brings us full circle to the original thread - plan, fund, and choose any acquisitions carefully to avoid diluting the organization resources and work to have a few proud, completed pieces vs. acres and acres of junk.

Bob Kutella


68trolley@comcast.net

> Good work on the hopper!! I used that as
> just one example on a long list of
> 'forgotten' cars. I am very glad you were
> able to do this.

> As Collection Curator for Freight Cars at
> IRM some of you may suspect I have or had a
> hidden agenda. A few weeks ago we ran a 19
> car freight train behind our Frisco Russian
> decapod and visitors were massed along
> trackside to see the spectacle and hear the
> old girl bark. They were even parked at our
> rural road crossings off site to try to get
> better or unobstructed photos.

Bob:

The 19 car freight sounds great! How about posting a photo?

> Yes the steam was part of the show but I
> received many comments about the freight
> cars. Over the past five years or so we have
> done over a dozen of these cars cosmetically
> and paintwise and they all bear authentic
> complete lettering. The other cars in the
> train were not 'brand new' but all of them
> recieved a complete inspection and
> maintenance using a checklist we developed -
> about 60 items for mechanical and safety
> related issues.

Bob:

How about posting this checklist too? Or if to long, are copies available to other museums/tourist railroads?

> Not a perfect system but one we feel is
> necessary even if the cars are coupled and
> moved only a few times per year in train
> service. Looking at one decrepit freight car
> may not inspire much romance, but a whole
> string of 'em does rekindle memories. And if
> we are (collectively as preservationists) to
> represent ourselves as a true 'museum' they
> have a place in railroad history.

Bob:

I think that this is a neglected part of rail preservation. The "typical" freight car (of whatever era our museums represent) needs to be given attention instead of neglected as is so often the case.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

> I do not mean to imply that all preservation
> groups go out and start acquiring and
> painting boxcars since in many if not most
> cases they may not be appropriate to the
> collection focus or mission of a group.
> Which brings us full circle to the original
> thread - plan, fund, and choose any
> acquisitions carefully to avoid diluting the
> organization resources and work to have a
> few proud, completed pieces vs. acres and
> acres of junk.

> Bob Kutella


midlandblb@cs.com

> Bob:

> The 19 car freight sounds great! How about
> posting a photo?

> Bob:

> How about posting this checklist too? Or if
> to long, are copies available to other
> museums/tourist railroads?

> Bob:

> I think that this is a neglected part of
> rail preservation. The "typical"
> freight car (of whatever era our museums
> represent) needs to be given attention
> instead of neglected as is so often the
> case.

> Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad
> Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

Les,

In a way I must admit to being embarassed since I paced/chased the steam freight and thus was not able to get any pics myself. I will ask around to see who else managed to take a photo and will try to get one up.

As for the checklist I am sure it is not perfect, but a good starting point. We did not choose to add such items as cleanliness of the car, upholstery, or clean and working windows as they might apply to visitor impressions and enjoyment so paying attention to those is pretty much a given.

Our goal is to have each operating car in our department undergo an annual inspection before entering service and this is not as burdensome as you might think. Once a car goes through this the first time, following years only take an hour or two depending on what needs attention. Of course we also encourage the operators to inspect and report any items needing attention.

The checklist for inspections was done as a group effort and keyboarded by one of our members (who is now our acting president). Anyone interested, please contact me off list, with name and mailing address and I can mail photocopies.

Bob Kutella

68trolley@comcast.net

> The checklist for inspections was done as a
> group effort and keyboarded by one of our
> members (who is now our acting president).
> Anyone interested, please contact me off
> list, with name and mailing address and I
> can mail photocopies.

> Bob Kutella

Howabout you bring some Xeroxes to TRAIN? Surely some body from IRM ust be going.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> double ended flamdoodles

> How many thousands, tens of thousands,
> (or more) simple two bay open hoppers served
> the country and rail system for so many
> years - and yet have essentially disappeared
> with few if any preserved?

Reading Company Technical & Historical Society has 5 (five) such cars. 2 RDG's and 3 from the Lehigh Valley, thanks to member generosity. All are rust-buckets, but are still with us!! Photos of the Reading cars are on the roster page of the society web-site: ReadingRailroad.org

By the way, these are single-ended flamdoodles.

But I think our turntable might have been double.

RCT&HS web site ReadingRailroad.org has a nice roster of the society's collection, with color photos of most of the pieces -as they exist today.

I see a Reading diesel powered photo-freight in our not-too-distant future. Lots of painting and lettering before then, though.

Will photographers buy tickets for a vintage freight pulled by a C-630/C-424/U-30-C lash-up ??

> By the way, these are single-ended
> flamdoodles.

Okay, I give up. What's a "flamdoodle"?


bruceman@stargate.net

> Okay, I give up. What's a
> "flamdoodle"?

It is kind of like a mah-giner; but most people cannot distinguish between the left handed type and the right handed type!

In short, it is any obscure detail, fitting, or feature which 999 out of 1000 knowledgeable folks would not notice or think significant in the least. But in our rush to help justify an acquisition we point to it with pride and interest as something unique and notable which makes a piece of equipment more worthy of preservation.

Examples might be the style of rivet heads, use of square headed bolts on one end of one truck sideframe (or use of hex heads), type of cotter keys in brake rigging pins, the color of paint primer used, or even a modification or repair done while in service.

These features can in fact be valuable and significant when documenting a car history and writing a provenance - and help put together a mosaic of the car use, and an aid in any interactive display or signage. But I still wonder their value in making a choice when considering a potential acquistion.

Of course there is an exception to every rule and one which comes to mind here would be a fleet of 10 or more identical cars all going to the scrapper and trying to pick the ONE car for preservation. But even in a case like this, would you want the most TYPICAL example or the most UNIQUE (not typical) example?

Bob Kutella


68trolley@comcast.net

> Examples might be the style of rivet heads,
> use of square headed bolts on one end of one
> truck sideframe (or use of hex heads), type
> of cotter keys in brake rigging pins, the
> color of paint primer used, or even a
> modification or repair done while in
> service.

> Bob Kutella

Have to laugh Bob, Dashers and end metal were evidently considered a disposable item on the Lake Shore Electric Railway. Photographs and physical evidence document at least five cases of damage to the front and back of LSE167. When we were replacing the ends (20ga) we found that they used 1/4" stovebolts instead of rivets and puttied up the slots. Makes for a very easy authentic repair!

Flamdoodles are one step above flip-flap and folderal, all necessary for a smooth operation.


lamontdc@adelphia.net