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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4772
Location: Maine
We all can see and point out errors in these several videos, but we need to keep conjecture regarding cause to ourselves. Albeit serious damage occurred to historic equipment and catastrophic disaster didn't happen, no lives were lost. Strasburg remains "the gold standard" of tourist steam operation, and serious consequences will no doubt follow.

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:42 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:08 pm
Posts: 417
Location: Amherst, OH
Is the Switch Position Awareness Form (SPAF) not a thing any more?


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 327
Bobharbison wrote:
I don't think restricted speed comes into play though. Why not? Because it would appear that the speed was within the range of being able to stop in 1/2 the distance. If that is correct, then the speed wasn't a factor.

Failure to properly observe the position of the switch would appear to be the cause, not speed.


It Is ABSOLUTELY part of the definition of Restricted Speed to look out for switch improperly lined.

See the General Code of Operating Rules version about eight posts above your post. IIRC NORAC version includes Broken Rail and 15 MPH in Interlocking Limits.

The Rules Examiners would humorously summarize the rule by saying if you hit anything it was your fault no matter what.

Brian


Last edited by choodude on Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:57 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:37 pm
Posts: 83
As a retired locomotive engineer/pilot and rules man who has handled many passenger excursions my mind was always on safe operation. While I was running the engine I rarely allowed anybody else except the conductor to be in the cab because it created too much of an un-nessary distraction. Even on some steam excursions I made hosts limit who was in the cab to avoid distractions.

My job as engineer was to safely run the engine and nothing else.

Exprail


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:30 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:41 pm
Posts: 166
Every human is fallible depsite how greatly they value themselves. This can happen to you. That's how complaceny works. It cares not of your skillset, years on the road or ability to memorize a rule. There are two people that make up locomotive engineers; guys who've screwed up and those that will.

Let's view this as a teachable moment and be thankful it wasn't worse.

DC


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:05 pm
Posts: 198
And Contractors wonder why Railroad Flagmen are REQUIRED when the contractor is working near railroad property.

Where was the Flagman for the excavator?


Last edited by mmi16 on Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:46 pm
Posts: 2696
Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
co614 wrote:
May I suggest that everyone refrain from being too critical as if they're being honest with you anyone who has any substantial time running will tell you that yes, they've had a few close calls that came VERY close to ending poorly but didn't by the skin of their teeth.
No question about that. Anyone who's run at all belongs to the "But by the grace of God, go I" club.
There are factors besides situational awareness. Who left that switch there?
You all seem to forget that waving at the passengers is a real thing at Strasburg on these moves. I've seen it every time I was there myself.
On another forum, someone said that the switch target is on the fireman's side there. I just couldn't tell from the videos I've seen to tell either way.
I agree that the engineer carries the vast majority of the blame overall, but what other contributions are there?

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:21 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 3010
mmi16 wrote:
Where was the Flagman for the excavator?


The equipment was parked, in storage, not in use. Presumably if it was in use, that switch would have been locked with a MOW lock, and the adjacent track would have been being flagged since they could potentially foul it.

But when it's parked, it's no different than a boxcar in the siding. Line and lock for main track.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:26 pm 
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Location: Shawinigan, Quebec, Canada
(I know is not a big wreck) but do you think NTSB need to be called??

or that only Strasburg Railroad to find what happens??

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 3010
You may well be correct. I was thinking that the rule only applied to the speed of the movement and that there would be a different, more general rule, about observing the position of switches that would apply.

In either case, the actual speed does not appear to be an issue. They could easily have stopped. They're still at fault, and I'll defer to rules examiner to determine which rule(s) to write them up on.

choodude wrote:
Bobharbison wrote:
I don't think restricted speed comes into play though. Why not? Because it would appear that the speed was within the range of being able to stop in 1/2 the distance. If that is correct, then the speed wasn't a factor.

Failure to properly observe the position of the switch would appear to be the cause, not speed.


It Is ABSOLUTELY part of the definition of Restricted Speed to look out for switch improperly lined.

See the General Code of Operating Rules version about eight posts above your post. IIRC NORAC version includes Broken Rail and 15 MPH in Interlocking Limits.

The Rules Examiners would humorously summarize the rule by saying if you hit anything it was your fault no matter what.

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2605
Although I have written of my various concerns with Steamtown's recent past and present situation; I can say that in the old days; we were constantly reminded from the unfortunate permanently debilitating accident of one employee, who as I recall (from oral accounts, it occurred before I was there) was knocked from the cab as locomotive was entering the "core complex" and there are support beams that create a close clearance hazard there. We were constantly reminded about the potential for sudden death and injury; and the need to ensure proper switch position and the clear and unobstructed view of our route; and as applicable sufficient space to finish the move.

Reviewing the video:

It appears from the video that there is a prominently displayed switch banner on the switch stand, displaying a white aspect at the top. It also appears that it would be directly behind the Amtrak catenary support pole and obstructed when viewed from certain angles.

The track curves to the right; so the boiler barrel is obstructing the engineer's view of the track

Right at 0:01 you see there is hand emerge from the cab window; there is intermittent waiving to the train being passed; at :07 there is another waive which appears to be the engineer's hand.

At about :07, it sounds like there's a voice saying no, and there clearly an somewhat frantic "stop, stop".

Another video; taken from the train sent to me appears to show the excavator placed behind the fouling point on the track and shoved back significantly by the impact; the voices in the train are clearly shocked.


Richard Glueck and co614 are right, while we can see what occurred; drawing causative conclusions at this point isn't warranted.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:56 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:08 pm
Posts: 328
Location: Alberta, Canada
Bobharbison wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
Where was the Flagman for the excavator?


The equipment was parked, in storage, not in use. Presumably if it was in use, that switch would have been locked with a MOW lock, and the adjacent track would have been being flagged since they could potentially foul it.

But when it's parked, it's no different than a boxcar in the siding. Line and lock for main track.

Our section crews put up red flags and sometimes portable derails to protect unattended track units, as well as lining the switch away and locking out the track if there's no room left.

We of course are still required to operate at restricted speed and expect to find any non-main track switch lined against us.

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1799
Engine crew (engineer and fireman) are responsible for checking switch stands, signals, and switch points. Blame is on them 100%. Period.

Yes it’s situational awareness, and assumptions, etc. doesn’t change the facts.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:05 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:31 pm
Posts: 73
Crazy there was a go-pro on the excavator. The switch stand was clearly visible to the engineer. Restricted speed just means if you screw up it's on you. There is no reason to hit anything in restricted limits. Complacence and not paying attention to details is the culprit. A boiler explosion was narrowly avoided. Thats a big take away from this incident.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:11 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:08 pm
Posts: 417
Location: Amherst, OH
It wasn't a GoPro it was the Virtual Railfan camera.


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