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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 12148
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
mrwalsh85 wrote:
p51 wrote:
BM765 wrote:
I find it quite telling that this event that did not involve the passenger consist, nor result in any injury has garnered 7 pages of comments.
A well-known steam locomotive collided spectacularly in front of several video cameras.
How could anyone be surprised at the use of bandwidth in response to that?


Further, the general response from the poster base of RYPN has been "meh," at best, towards park trains - or anything that runs on track narrower than 36", and even that narrow is hit or miss. Based on the vibe I get on here, J&L 58 is a good example of this.

So, not surprising that the other event didn't garner much bandwith.

There's another aspect at work here.

In spite of the meticulous professionalism and the use of real vintage equipment in a prototypical fashion by some "park" operations--Edaville, Tweetsie, Dollywood, and Walt Disney all come to mind--too many "park" operations fall under both the official (regulatory) and unofficial rubric of either "overgrown models" or "amusement rides."

While it is true that "Twenty People Injured In Train Wreck" will be the headline or chyron of the three-sentence story on TV or in a newspaper following an accident at either the Grand Canyon Railway, Amtrak, or an amusement park choo-choo, and public perception can be swayed against general rail safety in either case, those of us who have hands-on experience know that there is probably little or nothing to be gained in real-world ramifications from one of these that will reasonably apply to another.

The possible exception may be top-heavy cars where everyone suddenly rushes to one side, and that might apply to about five "heritage" two-foot-gauge operations in the States that I can think of...........


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:24 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:26 pm
Posts: 258
We all need to be on guard for issues that can distract us, even legitimate issues in the cab. We need to be conscience of inattentiveness, complacency and forgetfulness. I watched a tv show on Japan's Shinkansen high speed train. Like Amtrak, they only have one person in the cab. As the train approaches a signal, the engineer/driver acknowledges it by a salute and pointing with their arm. I use to have to go into vaulted rooms. The door would have sign-in sheet for signing in and signing out. It had an additional column to initial after you checked a second time that the door was locked. The aviation industry deals with this all the time.

https://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefin ... ctions.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 733
BM765 wrote:
I find it quite telling that this event that did not involve the passenger consist, nor result in any injury has garnered 7 pages of comments. Meanwhile the accident a week ago at a theme park that saw passenger cars overturned and 7 individuals hospitalized only made it to 25 comments. The perceived drama captured by the video makes all the difference.

Interesting observation. My heightened interest in this over the other incident is due to my perception of SRR as being a higher profile operation in general and a more relevant heritage operation in particular. It is a functioning freight RR, a steam passenger excursion RR, and a preservation industry back shop. Anecdotally, the amusement park incident you referred to hit the top of the Yahoo News home page in less than 24 hours yet I have not yet seen this yard mishap at SRR on that page yet. So the interest for me is more if this could possibly adversely impact other heritage operations either economically due to negative publicity/public perception or operationally due to greater regulatory oversight. General public's interest may be more human interest - people injured and the stories of eyewitnesses.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2605
The volume of commentary is related to the existence of contemporaneous video.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:01 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 2053
Location: New Franklin, OH
There’s nothing on the national news feeds. You can find it on the local outlets, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:01 pm 
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Location: Shawinigan, Quebec, Canada
superheater wrote:
The volume of commentary is related to the existence of contemporaneous video.


Well when Virtual Railfan film the fail live on YouTube maybe that would make more the headline here

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:28 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3971
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
I looked through this longish thread, and I didn't see the Strasburg's official statement.

There is a possibility I've missed it (and if I have, please accept an apology), but it does look like something that would be of interest here.

(Source--Strasburg Rail Road Facebook page)

Quote:
Strasburg Rail Road Co. statement regarding incident at Leaman Place Junction, 2 November 2022

On Wednesday, 2 November 2022 at 11:23 AM, steam locomotive #475, owned and operated by Strasburg Rail Road Co. (SRC) was involved in an incident at Leaman Place Junction where the locomotive struck a rail-mounted excavator on a stub siding track. The excavator was placed on the stub track the previous evening for storage by the Maintenance of Way (MOW) crew working in the area. Our internal investigation has concluded that after placing the excavator on the stub track for storage, the MOW crew member failed to realign the track switch and to secure it in normal position. When running the locomotive around the passenger train on the Main Track runaround where the stub track switch is located, the locomotive crew did not notice the misaligned switch and entered the stub track at approximately 10 MPH, the speed limit for that track, striking the stationary MOW equipment and coming to a stop after a short distance. Both the excavator and locomotive incurred moderate damage.

On any given day we have as many as 75 employees working in our operation and several thousand guests ride our trains. We take seriously the safety of everyone who interacts with us in any capacity, every single day. Our decades long history indicates that despite the unique and complex nature of our operation, we have an outstanding safety record when taken in context of the number of employee hours worked, trains operated, and passengers and freight hauled each year. We also take seriously the rules and regulations that apply to our operations. We are cooperating with FRA as they investigate and will comply with their requirements and recommendations. Additionally, we are using this opportunity to perform root cause analysis and identify training gaps, operational monitoring practices, or other factors that may have contributed to this accident.

SRC is proud to have an excellent, dedicated, professional staff who care deeply for the people who work on and ride our trains every day. We acknowledge our mistakes when they are made and learn from them any time they happen. Our front-line staff enjoys the full support and backing of our management team, and we work hand-in-hand to achieve our goals. We do not excuse mistakes, but we acknowledge the humanity of those who make them, as we all do. We live in a world where people are judged too quickly and dismissed by many employers over minor mistakes. We intend to lead by example, helping the valuable, committed members of our team who were involved in this incident learn and grow from their actions. We ask for your consideration before joining the mob mentality of ignorant or irrational criticism. Instead, we welcome continued support from our community, railroad and otherwise.

Sincerely,

Brendan E. Zeigler

VP – Chief Mechanical Officer

Strasburg Rail Road Co.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:58 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:23 am
Posts: 74
Fourth time's the charm:

"Strasburg Rail Road Co. statement regarding incident at Leaman Place Junction, 2 November 2022
On Wednesday, 2 November 2022 at 11:23 AM, steam locomotive #475, owned and operated by Strasburg Rail Road Co. (SRC) was involved in an incident at Leaman Place Junction where the locomotive struck a rail-mounted excavator on a stub siding track. The excavator was placed on the stub track the previous evening for storage by the Maintenance of Way (MOW) crew working in the area. Our internal investigation has concluded that after placing the excavator on the stub track for storage, the MOW crew member failed to realign the track switch and to secure it in normal position. When running the locomotive around the passenger train on the Main Track runaround where the stub track switch is located, the locomotive crew did not notice the misaligned switch and entered the stub track at approximately 10 MPH, the speed limit for that track, striking the stationary MOW equipment and coming to a stop after a short distance. Both the excavator and locomotive incurred moderate damage.
On any given day we have as many as 75 employees working in our operation and several thousand guests ride our trains. We take seriously the safety of everyone who interacts with us in any capacity, every single day. Our decades long history indicates that despite the unique and complex nature of our operation, we have an outstanding safety record when taken in context of the number of employee hours worked, trains operated, and passengers and freight hauled each year. We also take seriously the rules and regulations that apply to our operations. We are cooperating with FRA as they investigate and will comply with their requirements and recommendations. Additionally, we are using this opportunity to perform root cause analysis and identify training gaps, operational monitoring practices, or other factors that may have contributed to this accident.
SRC is proud to have an excellent, dedicated, professional staff who care deeply for the people who work on and ride our trains every day. We acknowledge our mistakes when they are made and learn from them any time they happen. Our front-line staff enjoys the full support and backing of our management team, and we work hand-in-hand to achieve our goals. We do not excuse mistakes, but we acknowledge the humanity of those who make them, as we all do. We live in a world where people are judged too quickly and dismissed by many employers over minor mistakes. We intend to lead by example, helping the valuable, committed members of our team who were involved in this incident learn and grow from their actions. We ask for your consideration before joining the lynch-mob mentality of ignorant or irrational criticism. Instead, we welcome continued support from our community, railroad and otherwise.
Sincerely,
Brendan E. Zeigler
VP – Chief Mechanical Officer
Strasburg Rail Road Co."


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:59 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4772
Location: Maine
Again, Strasburg's the gold standard.

Acknowledge the event.
Put it before trained review personnel.
Don't rush to judgement.
Base the judgement on facts, not speculation or rumor.
Make a reasonable judgement rather than an unfounded show trial.
Take appropriate action which addresses the error(s).
Make those actions work for the benefit of everyone, not the punishment of few.

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 5:19 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1881
Location: Back in NE Ohio
If that had happened at a Class I, everyone involved would have been immediately taken out of service, told to call their local chairman, and would be receiving investigation notices by registered FedEx. So SRC is a little more civilized and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:16 pm
Posts: 231
First thing I notice, watching the engine crew as the engine's heading towards the camera, is that the engineer's view of the switch target is more than likely restricted by the cab corner...
I didn't notice him lean out the window to look at the target... or even lean in to look out the front window. They run like I would have... "that switch is always lined for us to run around the train".

I about ran through a switch on our switching lead the other day (right in front of the yard office)... I was only about 5 car lengths from it when I noticed it, 10mph.... the switchmen were setting there in the company car waiting on me as I came down the lead... I was looking right at it.. .figured since they were setting there that they'd have me all lined up... as I got closer and closer.. it finally struck me that "shit... that switch target isn't right... the switch is against me"...

Over the radio I said "you guys gonna line that switch for me?" There was a flurry of activity in the car...door flew open, guy got out to line the switch... the other guy says "good test, you passed" over the radio...LOL....

Of course I have ran though a switch, or two, in my career on the RR.... one time the switchman radio'd me to "bring 'em ahead"... he was ahead of me, standing at the switch, which was lined against me... I didn't notice it, he didn't throw it... I ran through it and he stood right there and watched. There was a frantic call to the section foreman to see if they had a spare switch machine.... got that one fixed and covered up... nobody the wiser.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Northern Illinois
junior wrote:


It'd be like saying the incident at Gettysburg was minor because it only affected the crew....we see how much has changed since that accident, and in large part thanks to SRC, we can still enjoy Steam Powered Excursions.....but this minor event was inches (unknown) away from being a major event, that in all essence, could have been the one ended the tourist railroad industry as we know it, if not completely, if for no other reason than the probable new astronomical insurance costs resulting from hundreds of lawsuits, had it been a major event.

So yes, there is a difference.


The big difference from the Gettysburg incident is, to my way of thinking, that the NTSB did dig down to find root causes in that incident, and didn't like what they found; to wit, that the once massive steam locomotive servicing industry employing tens of thousands of employees, all sharing the same training and possessing an institutional knowledge base had shrunk to the point where we had little 'islands', where a man owned a locomotive, passed the responsibility for its care and maintenance on to his son, and hired all help locally from outside the industry. It brought the realization that, if a simple detail like reaming the gauge glass thimbles every month should be forgotten, it was unlikely to ever be questioned, and never re-instituted. I can't say I disagree with that conclusion or the steps taken to remedy it.

In the present instance, we have a well run thriving operation, with an exemplary safety record caught in what many are saying is a common occurrence; a momentary lapse of attention. I certainly hope that's all they find. However, I also hope that the investigation digs deeper, for the only way to protect against those momentary lapses is with redundancy. In this case it would be a policy of all switches used in normal operations lined and locked in their designated normal position, with a list of what those normal positions are, training of the MoW forces on this subject, and discipline for infractions.

Brings to mind the question if the "MoW forces" in this instance are even SRC employees, or contractors, but it matters little; if they employ contractors, they have to have safeguards in place to prevent switches being left open when the gang ties up.

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:14 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:36 pm
Posts: 363
superheater wrote:
The volume of commentary is related to the existence of contemporaneous video.


My thoughts as well. The Silver Dollar City event just had 2 photos, which didn't give a lot of insight, and no real firsthand accounts, and no video. This incident had videos from multiple angles, allowing much better analysis.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 512
Quote:
I would expect on a freight railroad a bulletin would be issued to tell crews MOW worked in this area and to be alert for unsafe conditions.


If the MOW forces worked in an area there should not be any "unsafe conditions" remaining when the MOW forces finished and "released" those tracks for normal operations.

Never seen a RR bulletin warning the Operating Crews that MOW worked in an area and be on the "lookout" for unsafe conditions that the MOW folks left in your path....

On a "freight railroad" where my Pop worked the MOW persons (in the old days RR employees, but in more recent times outside contractors) had a strict set of rules to operate under. When repairs/improvements were being performed on "live rails" the MOW personnel where granted "Flag Authority", they "OWNED" a section of railroad track and had the sole authority to allow/deny any train permission to pass through it. This "Flag Authority" overruled the RR Dispatcher and the Operating Crew and the Rule Book. NOBODY could pass the "flag authority" without the explicit permission of the "Person In Charge" (aka the "Flag"). Dates back to before radios when the "flag" was an individual that stood next the tracks where the MOW work was happening with a literal RED FLAG that he/she would wave to stop/slow an approaching train that already had notice from a daily bulletin that MOW was happening near that location.

AND the MOW folks were required to make sure the tracks were in a safe condition before "releasing"/"returning" them back to the control of the Dispatchers/Operating Crews/Rule Book.

Worked well for many many decades. Then the railroads "outsourced" MOW tasks. Things worked OK, except on one occasion the "outsourced" MOW contractor finished up their work for the day early and "went home". My Pop was running an Amtrak "Empire Service" train and radioed ahead for permission from the "Flag" to proceed through the work area. No answer from the contractors "Flag" since he/she went home. Amtrak stopped and waited while the dispatcher called the MOW contractor at his house and got him to drive out to the work site and remove the signs and get on the radio and give the proper "flag authority" for the Amtrak train to proceed through the MOW worksite. Rules prevented an "incident" but delayed the train.

I am of course very sorry that the SRR had an incident, I am very grateful that nobody was injured and I can understand how it could happen to human beings.

Wishing all the best for the SRR and their employees / contractors.

Cheers, Kevin.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg Railroad 475 Collides With Excavator
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:41 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1881
Location: Back in NE Ohio
You aren't kidding about the seriousness of MoW authority work rules. On CSX I was approaching a Rule 707 work authority one morning going to Philly from Baltimore, and we were within 5 minutes of the start time for a work area, the rule being if you don't think your entire train can clear the limits of their authority you have to get permission through. Well, the Employee-In-Charge was stuck in traffic on I-95 out of radio range, so we stopped short of his limits until he got within radio range in his work truck and gave us permission, "Maximum speed permitted for your train", through his work limits. He wasn't within sight of us, and didn't even have his signs up yet, but we had to do it by the book.

Looking at video of the Strasburg incident shot by a passenger with a really good angle, they were really lucky there was some "bounce-back" room behind that backhoe, or it might have done some front flue sheet damage if it had had nowhere to go.


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