NJ Museum of Transportation Woes and Possible Eviction

JR May · **Posted:** Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:08 pm

I would like to point out that I did not create this topic, although welcomed it. The purpose was to just make people aware of a potential problem. No one cried fire, just that it may be good to be prepared.

One way or the other, there will be a down sizing of the collection. That is a fact. Someplace here I can dig up the DEP note on that issue if you do not believe me. A condition of the new license may be to provide a plan to address this requirement.

You can believe it, or not, I really don't care. That is not important. What is important is to be prepared for what ever happens.

By my read, the cards are stacked against NJMT at this point. Hopefully I am wrong, but it just seems the DEP has amassed a stack of documents supporting removal with NJMT handing them more and more reasons to be closed with every emailed excuse as to why what ever document was not provided as required. There is also the question of viability. The DEP can not sign a license with an organization that is not viable so financial data, membership, and planning data are critical. This review is done by some office within the State someplace.

There is also some sort of liability review that is required and which the state will do. This will set the liability insurance levels to be required in the new license. I would be worried about this.

License red line comments are due back to the DEP by 1 July. That will be key to this whole thing.

Again, not yelling fire, just suggesting that people be aware.
J.R.

co614 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:29 pm

Repeated advice. Listen carefully to Mr. J R May. He knows from whence he speaks.

Ross Rowland

Dave · **Posted:** Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:05 pm

I think we need somebody with the authority to do so to yell fire to motivate the people involved to take action or be open to offers. July isn't far off. Please do keep us informed.

Mr. Ed · **Posted:** Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:30 am

Mr. Lyle. Your post is proof positive that "spin" is alive and well. This situation has been brewing for years and J.R. has always been on top of it since it is near and dear to his heart. If this were a court of law, your comments would be inadmissible as "hearsay". Yet you put so much faith in it. J.R. is in contact regularly with members of the NJMT and also does his homework by digging up the documents he shared.

And as far as Pemberton and it's connection to this mess goes, there are many commonalities but the biggest one is that when you lease property, you need to listen to your landlord. Ignore that entity and watch your collection get torched! I was there and saw what happens when you try to have a pissing contest with your landlord. I also saw the total lack of support from members of this site, may of whom are not involved in this hobby we have chosen. So while you are local to the location, your comments are not.

Later!
Mr. Ed

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:53 pm

Let's sit back for a moment.

Assuming that both Mr. Lyle's report from his visit and Mr. May's reports from "behind the scenes" are accurate--and I have no reason whatsoever to believe either side is fabricating anything--then we most likely have yet another classic case of a non-profit's management either utterly oblivious to their peril or deeply in denial of such, with no sign of such peril or risk being communicated to the "rank and file."

This is nothing new whatsoever to the field, and certainly not just for rail museums. There are any number of businesses, from small restaurants or bars to massive entities like Enron, where no one in the rank and file knows how fragile the situation is until the proverbial "house of cards" comes crashing down. And it's not always obvious, via deteriorating track like the Penn Central or Rock Island, or vendors demanding cash on delivery. I watched one former employer of mine go through all the motions as if nothing were wrong in outward appearances to customers and employees, until the principals suddenly disappeared with all their assets to the Cayman Islands and left the company to declare bankruptcy. (I made out like a bandit during the liquidation sales.)

To be fair, it's not the job of every volunteer, every docent, every intern, etc. to have an in-depth grasp of the operations and management of their museum/operation. Many museums/etc. have frequent turnover simply through death, relocations, loss of interest, etc.

But when a member, former member, former volunteer, or "local expert" has kept their ear to the proverbial rail for decades, their opinions probably amount for something--at times better than actual management's.

xboxtravis7992 · **Joined:** Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:33 am **Posts:** 195

Cameron Wolk wrote:

I inquired about the Pouch Terminal Mack back in 2015, the museum will sell her if they feel they are getting a good price out of her. #2 is a one of a kind artifact, NJMT is very aware of her historical significance and will not seek to scrap the locomotive. As for the other artifacts it's up in the air what will happen to them. I know there has been some interest expressed in the Raritan Copper #9, we'll see where we go with that.

Cameron

Raritan Copper #9 has really been the reason I have been keeping an eye on this whole situation; even though its been happening on the opposite end of the country from were I live. Raritan Copper represents the end of the supply chain of the International/Anaconda process for copper production, from mining to smelting and final refining. Raritan of course was the refinery site, but it was out here in Utah were much of the mining and smelting was actually happening. I can only imagine how many car loads of smelted copper departing International Smelting passed over the Tooele Valley Railway with waybills to route them to Raritan for final processing. That is why I am glad to hear that other parties have interest in the engine, since it would be a shame to see another piece of our mutual copper history to be lost.

PMC · **Joined:** Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm **Posts:** 2876

Start at 6:27:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3djwy5

I think there was a film called "Clueless" a few years back, too.

bigjim4life · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:52 am

Someone mentioned Allaire in another thread and it got me wondering - what ever became of this?

JR May · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:27 am

The short answer is that right now they are shut down due to the CORVID-19 situation at least until the end of April. However, the NJDOT has since pulled out as the entity performing equipment and track inspections leaving them somewhat high and dry as to some sort of inspection process. Without some approved inspection process in place, it looks like re-opening at the end of the month may be in question. Have attached the NJDOT letter. Might as well throw in the 2018 tax return as well which gives a picture of their financial position, although a year old. As of recent OPRA requests, there is still no new lease/license in place for the use of the property within Allaire State Park.

I tend to wonder how one's liability insurance company feels about providing coverage for property that you have no agreement to be on. Squatters for the most part.

Scranton Yard · **Joined:** Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am **Posts:** 733

N.J.A.C 5:14A-1.1, the goal of which is to, "provide reasonable standards for the design, construction and operation of amusement rides for the safety of the public", excludes, in subsection e(1) " A locomotive weighing more than seven tons, operating on a track the length of which is one-half mile or greater, the gage of which is three feet or greater, and the weight of which is at least 60 pounds per yard". Being unfamiliar with the technical specifications of the equipment at NJMT, I do no know if this exclusion applies.

If the exclusion does not apply, then the inspection function for the equipment could likely be served by applying for an annual permit with the NJ Department of Community Affairs which would assure that the equipment/ride is inspected annually and the owner has met all outstanding violations and has proper insurance for the duration of operation under the annual permit.

If the exclusion does apply, then NJDOT appears to be in violation of N.J.A.C 5:14A-1.1e(1-i) which mandates that, "Such locomotives shall be under the jurisdiction of the New Jersey Department of Transportation for the purposes of safety inspection;".

JR May · **Posted:** Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:01 pm

Scranton Yards:
You stumbled into the key issue here. The exclusion you reference was specifically put in there to exclude the Pine Creek RR. Back in the 1970s, N.J.A.C 5:14A-1.1, better known at the time as the Carnival Act, was put into place and would have required such things as seat belts for each passenger and other oddities you would not see with full sized railroad equipment versus amusement park equipment. You noted also that NJDOT was only to inspect the locomotive, not the full operation. The DCA, which over sees the inspection of NJ amusement park rides, never had an agreement with the NJDOT on a full inspection process for Pine Creek. Keep in mind that at the time, back in the 1970s, the primary motive power was steam which was inspected by the State and the operators were licensed by the state of NJ. A lot has changed in 40 years.

Bottom line is that Pine Creek really falls into a black hole when it comes to inspections. To make it worse, one of the NJMT trustees brought up with the State of NJ DCA that modified equipment can not be used unless it has under gone some sort of commissioning process including a review of engineering and materials. The coach (was 42" gauge, now on 36" gauge wheel sets), and the CNJ caboose (built for standard gauge, now riding on 3' gauge D&RGW trucks) have never under gone any such analysis. Now that this cat is out of the bag, do they now need to go through this "commissioning process?" In this day and age, you have to keep the potential liability of operating modified equipment in mind, especially when a trustee has brought up the issue with the State. Can you turn that clock back on this? I really don't know.

So, now there are two issues at play here. A plan for regular inspections and then this issue of modified equipment. I would expect any new lease for the property with the NJ DEP to cover such issues.

J.R.

JR May · **Posted:** Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:16 pm

NJMT has not been operating due to COVID-19 which is no surprise, but looks like the NJDEP (the landlord) clarified things on 19 June 2020. The following is required to be considered for opening:

* NJMT’s Pine Creek Railroad must submit a COVID-19 Operation Plan for the day to day and scheduled activities for Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) approval before re-entering the Lease Premise. (should not be a surprise at all)

* Upon receipt of DEP approval of the COVID-19 Operations Plan NJMT will be permitted to conduct interpretive tours and educational programs. (Note
that it says nothing about train operations)

* NJMT is not permitted to operate the Pine Creek Railroad until such time as the DEP receives and approves the required Annual Safety Report. This must be certified and sealed by a NJ licensed Civil Engineer. (inspection has been an issue for years especially with NJDOT now out of the picture)

* In addition, NJMT must submit the names of all persons qualified in the State of NJ to operate the railroad engine(s) and rolling stock. (Again, this has been an issue for years as well - what is meant by qualified?)

So, by the sounds of it, before a train can operate again, a COVID plan is required as is a solution to the inspection process and a list of qualified operators. See what happens.

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:16 am

An update via another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47172

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:03 am

locojuan wrote:

(Repeat . . . RYPN Interchange forums are non-judgemental, micro-aggression free safe zones . . .)

I've lurked here for a number of years but I have, until now, kept my mouth shut lest I prove that I'm a fool. I apologize if I give any offense here.

If I were a reporter, the headline of my story would be " 'Fire' Shouted in Crowded Preservation Theater. Panic Ensues. Many Emotionally Trampled. No Fire Found."

I visited NJMT yesterday. My first impression on driving up was
that, except for the space where the Q&TL snowplow had sat, nothing else had changed since my last visit on New Years Day this year. What's up with that? I spoke with several knowledgeable members individually or small group, asking questions about issues raised in this thread. Answers were in my opinion freely given, with no bobbing, weaving, spinning or evidence of brainwashing.

Is the Museum in imminent danger of eviction from Allaire? No.

Is the Museum in any forseeable danger of eviction from Allaire? No.

Is the collection at risk of scrapping or sell-off? No.

Are there plans for wholesale scrapping or sell-off? No.

Retail? No.

Why did the museum continually ignore or refuse to cooperate with the state on a new agreement? It didn't do either.

Why was a lease extension given through the end of 2019? Because museum representatives with legal counsel had a face-to-face meeting in Trenton with Parks Division officials to review and clarify unresolved issues with the formation of the new agreement. More work is needed to produce a sensible, functional document.

Why didn't the museum file a financial report with state by the end of February? Because someone unnamed in Trenton made that date up. The museum always files an annual financial report with the state as well as a Form 990 with the IRS, typically in the middle of the year following the year being reported, after an audit by a qualified CPA.

Where did all the snowplow parts go? Deteriorated, unusable metal has been scrapped. Trucks, flanger and mechanism, brake parts, etc. have been stored on the property indoors. There are no plans for disposal at this time.

Is this ITM in narrow-gauge? No.

Does NJMT need to be "Saved"? Only in the eyes of God.

Should I call Chidley and NJMT members as suggested in one comment? No, not if you're going to harrass and bully someone. If you want to visit, all are welcome.

Why does this stuff happen? Because NJMT is an oddity in the state park system . . . and because sometimes someone runs off the rails into a ditch and makes a mess. Cleanup on aisle 5.

If it should turn out that I've been played on this, I sincerely apologize. I will then gladly kiss whatever body part Melvin demands and humbly light the torches and hand out the pitchforks to all who want to storm the battlement.

Thanks,
John.

John P. Lyle, II
Matawan, NJ

Thanks,
John.

Given the latest update, this post--as they say--"hasn't aged well." At all.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:22 pm

Update to thread linked two posts above:

A supposed member of the NJMT (well, I can't check his credentials online, but I have no reason to not believe him) has posted at the original FB thread:

Quote:

I would like to clarify something for everyone. The Pine Creek Railroad is NOT shutting down. The issue in the paperwork that has been posted, has been resolved months ago. It was a simple issue regarding certain documents going to the incorrect person in the state. The reason there is no written "correspondence" is because the issue was simply resolved by phone. I hope this clarifies things for everyone.