Full press release and details are here at our new capital campaign website: https://www.greatsteelfleet.org/2023/08 ... -acquired/

More:

https://railfan.com/fort-wayne-railroad ... nger-cars/

List of cars for the roster-keepers:

Will these be restored as 108-seat cars, or have at least some of the original 'look'?

At least two cars are prime candidates to turn into something resembling/inspired by the lounge, dining, or parlor cars of the original New York Central designs, as they are currently tunneled.

Here's a breakdown of our plans so far: https://www.greatsteelfleet.org/empire-state-express/

A first-class car is probably a 2024-2025 project. Emulating the bar and lounge car layout in the original Empire fleet would be pretty great: https://nycshs.omeka.net/items/show/129891.

We are also looking at the possibility of converting a passenger coach with open windows/partial open windows (though obviously they were not built to be that way as it was all climate controlled,) but yet to be determined...

For the anticipated budget, you might be able to adapt the principle used in flush-closing automobile windows. The window glazing is placed in a frame that slides vertically on roller pins. The upper part of the track is aligned with the window opening in the car, so that the window or frame is in contact with the weatherstripping all around the opening. The tracks for the window are arranged with offsets, so that unlatching the window and pulling it down slightly disengages it laterally from the weatherstripping and lets it drop straight down into a pocket -- positive stops or a friction brake could be arranged to hold it in intermediate positions. The window pulls up into the track against the window face and is swung laterally when up all the way to push it flush (giving the effect of as-built glazing).

The arrangement will need to be counterbalanced, which can be done with proportional tension springs, either helical or 'clockspring' arranged, perhaps with gas struts. In my opinion there should be positive latches at the top. The windows might 'count' as emergency egress if designed to work 'off-axis'.

Congrats Kelly,.... as having a captive complete consist will prove to be ever more valuable going forward. Just ask Will Harris who is putting together the cars for the 611 to pull this fall over a portion of the BB RR. To be able to assemble a 15 car consist including both coaches and 1st. class cars he ended up with something like 9 different sources and Lord knows what the total costs will be getting the cars to Va. and then back to their homes after the trips.

No doubt whatsoever that long term it will be mandatory for any mainline steamer to have its own "train" if it wants to lead an active in service life.

Also long term it will be an important recruiting tool for future steam lovers to provide some open window/ open air space so as to allow folks to really experience the magic of steam up close and personal.

Onward & upward. Thanks, Ross Rowland

I've had a few conversations with Will and the team at VMT/611 over the last year or so to help them in their journey, as we had just been through it in 2022 (and of course, a few years earlier when we ran on Metra). Both FWRHS and VMT are in similar boats -- regional railroads to run on in their "backyard" but little serviceable cars at their immediate disposal. A wild challenge to have two of the hardest parts of the equation (locomotive + railroad) but not have the seats, made only slightly more ironic as FWRHS had its own fleet 35 years ago.

The distillation of the Iowa Pacific pool of passenger cars has had a dramatic effect on the profitability and availability of cars suited for "mainline" service. It really helped encourage the opportunity later in '22 when the deal for the Empire cars came together.



Thank you! This is helpful.

KL

I'm looking forward to these being restored to run on the mainline!

Great news
A NYC depot... check
A NYC trainset..check
I like to see New York Central in the news, look for the updates

I know money is always the problem and i love 765 but that would be great to see a Mohawk engine push this train

Those cars where not designed to support open windows that retract into the side walls of the cars. It would require some major hack job / butchering to implement slide up/down windows.

And it is all solid "shot welded" (Budd's version of "spot welding") stainless steel. One of the reasons that the shot welding process works so well in Stainless Steel is because the thermal diffusivity (a measure of how fast heat travels in a material) in SS in much lower than in regular steel So you can "shoot" a spot weld and join two sheets of SS very quickly before the adjacent metal can heat up and distort.

Unlikely you can pull off those modifications without inflicting serious permanent damage to the car sides. At the least I would recommend a full NDT test to find any cracking or deformation of the car sides BEFORE hacking into them.

There is likely a lot of stress locked into those car sides and as soon as you start hacking into them to add "open windows" the sheets are likely to warp/pull apart and you will never get them back into the correct shape....

I rode some of those cars as a young lad in service on the NYCRR with my Pop as the engineer (circa 1963, the train only had a number by then, no name, but was basically the same schedule and used those ESE passenger cars with E8's).

Converting those 1940's era "All Air Conditioned" streamlined ESE cars to open window tourist coaches would be about as wise as cutting the frame and boiler of the NKP 765 to stuff in another driving axle and longer flues to make a 2-10-4 out of her.

Perhaps a nicely furnished set of ESE cars with closed windows and good HVAC paired with a few open window coaches in your train set would offer the best of both worlds with no major hacking of historic fabric. And don't underestimate the HVAC needs, each human being is about equal to a 100 Watt light bulb (on average) heat generation wise. So you need AC that can handle about 5,000 kW per car. And those cars do get quite warm inside in the fall months when "at capacity" (I worked some of the excursions operated by the Rochester and Genesee Valley Railroad Museum in the late 1990's using these cars).

Suggest you forget hacking into historic fabric that has lasted 80 years..... Your mileage may vary....

I would gently suggest that you read up on welding, and on the technology of Shotwelding, before commenting any further on this topic.

Shotwelding is only incidentally related to the kind of spot welding you're describing. It is a carefully-considered method of injecting just the right amount of energy into the low-thermal-diffusing steel to weld it autogenously with full penetration. It is not intended as a kludge for quick fabrication. It would be relatively easy to reproduce the equipment and techniques from the patent information alone, were historically-accurate refabrication essential.

Note that your point about low thermal distortion clashes with your claim that modifying the structure of these cars will cause unanticipated structural stress relief distortion. I would be frankly astonished that providing parallel window tracks, or restructuring the inside of window-framing arrangements, would produce any substantial distortion of the framing of the car; certainly you're not going to assert that the glazing is a stressed member of the carbody construction?

Your point about air-conditioning requirements also defeats itself in this thread's context.

To be honest, it would be my preference too to restore and preserve these historic cars in their original 1941 form. But to the extent that perfect period interiors are not expected to be part of the restoration, and to the further extent that openable windows add to the appeal of operations (and to the potential revenue to be derived from operating 765 and the other engines that will be using the equipment) it makes sense to me to develop an alternative that keeps the exterior appearance of the equipment as 'historical' as possible.

I don't think anyone is proposing hacking into the framing to allow a window to drop perpendicularly like a framed sash. The alternative I see is to make the windows removable to the inside, with some kind of dedicated crane, possibly with some in thickened frames that would allow the glazing to be pushed out to meet modern safety requirements without changing the historic appearance substantially.

I'm reading the comments here, and I might as well put in my two cents--which are probably of negative value these days!!

1--Open windows on the Budd cars.

My own choice would be to just run them as air conditioned cars, as designed, maybe try to get the interiors as close to 1941 style as possible. However, given some other comments, I know that's not entirely what will be done--and they aren't my cars anyway.

2--We're talking about the Fort Wayne Historical Society here. If they have proven anything, it's their competence in all sorts of fields. Who else can manage even minimal main line running today? Who else has the skills and the recognition of those skills (i.e., credibility and trustworthiness) in the heritage steam world of today, particularly in regard to dealing with Class Is? In short, I'd trust them to do the job right.

3--Bit of opinion here, and it's not my operation, but--what would be wrong with rounding up some heavyweights for the open window stock? I like them, I like the "battleship" or "girder bridge" look of those rivets and the six wheel trucks. My experience on Norfolk Southern excursions told me the old timers were right, those cars are the best riding cars ever built. Pullman green is a nice, classic color, too (though Pennsy fans who bleed Tuscan red might disagree!)

There's that sound, too--

clump-clump-clump
CLAP-CLAP-CLAP
clump-clump-clump
CLAP-CLAP-CLAP
clump-clump-clump
CLAP-CLAP-CLAP

Love that sound--well, at least I do.

Finally, just a question--

Do the Fort Wayne people have any ideas or plans for an observation car to bring up the rear? I am guessing the originals are gone, but it would be nice to have a "matching" tail car.

Of course it could be a green heavyweight, the officials are on an inspection trip with an office car today. . .

Hmmm--maybe better take shelter from the incoming that might be on its way!!

They acquired Riding Mountain Park, one of the ex-Canadian Pacific Park-series combination dome-lounge-round end observation cars last November, built by Budd in '54. Should look quite nice with the ESE cars one day.

Welded rail. Jes' sayin'.....................

I believe that if you want to convert passenger cars into open window here's what I would do.

1. I would get several baggage cars cut out the sides then add seats to the frame add the window frames then you can that open window coaches. It would be a D.I.Y job I know that tourist railroads do that but I don't know if that could be done to run at high speeds or if it legal to do so?

2. get several Pullman heavyweights the 6 wheel axle trucks make a much more smoother ride for passengers and fits the style for open window coaches than Budd Cars that are mainly streamline sits on 4 axle trucks.

3. ESE cars are climate control as in with air conditioning. A.C. is attractive for passengers for the summers so the since these cars have AC then it would be best to keep them.

If these passenger cars weren't built with AC then it would make since to keep them as open windows

I have to say these aren't my cars so I can't tell them what to do with something that's not mine. Although this the FWRHS here so basically you can trust them with what they do and I can't judge them.

that's my opinion.