If I am riding behind steam I would want open windows. If the windows do not open I would just ride Amtrak.
Al

Great addition for them!

What happened to all the stainless cars that were owned by I think a leasing company, that ran behind 765 during the 21st century NS program?

Just out of curiosity, how many other ESE passenger cars still exist besides the 7 that were purchased?

Here is list supplied to me this week from one of the former owners of some Empire cars:

https://www.greatsteelfleet.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/empire-state-car-roster.pdf



These were part of Mid America Railcar Leasing's fleet, which was largely dispersed a few years ago. We did lease a batch of private varnish after the bulk of the employee-focused part of the NS program ended.



We also have a very popular open-air baggage car...and maybe a second one for next year.



No doubt, but many heavyweights out there are basket cases with roof issues, side sill issues, and the works if they haven't had recent TLC. Don't get me wrong, I grew up on my dad's open-window CB&Q commuter coach that he restored and sold to Ohio Central in the late 1980s, and have a major affinity for these. We've looked informally, and have been lucky with the stainless fleet so far. Ideally, there'd be a batch of these waiting around for when our Wabash switcher is restored, but no doubt it probably shoved some stainless around the terminal in Fort Wayne once upon a time. We do have a very rough NKP RPO that may finally slouch its way closer to the shop for some abatement this winter. If there's a good chess piece to get on the board some day, I hope we can get it.

Overall, regarding adapting windows into an Empire car, it is exploratory because we know the market is there, the demand is there, and there may be some creative solutions that don't alter the fabric more than it has been already with the commuter car conversion. I am pretty committed to finding a way to the original Empire lounge/parlor interior for at least one if not two of them, which is less about restoring the fabric and more about reimagining it (i.e. would the Central have taken a commuter coach and turned it into a first-class car? The Mercury says yes.)




Not everything we're running on now is welded rail...



As Brother Dixon points out, we did acquire the Park car last year. We're pretty excited to have a train set that represents almost a complete first-class train of the era -- bags, coaches, dining car, sleeper/lounge/dome/obs (all in one...once restored.)

Some big pretentious marketing nerd put some of this in the thread's original press release and websites for the infotainment:

https://www.greatsteelfleet.org/2023/08/new-york-central-cars-acquired/ - press release

https://www.greatsteelfleet.org/#tour (this is our entire fleet, and shows the progress on what's operating and in line for restoration)

https://www.greatsteelfleet.org/riding-mountain-park/ (with history/budget/etc)



NYC runs in the family, so I understand this sentiment entirely...For now, the Empire State Express recently arrived Collinwood Yard in Cleveland and is halfway to its new home.

KL

Via Nathan Six Chime



That's an impressive roster--14 cars, at least some operational. A bit short on the classic heavyweights I like, but I'm not going to complain!!

And Budds almost can last forever, thanks to that stainless steel construction.

I would stridently suggest you read up on welding and research the US Patents assigned to an employee of the Budd Company to educate yourself about how the Budd Company Invented "Shot Welding" (later called "Spot Welding", likely to overcome trademark issues).

Shot welding / Spot welding are the exact same thing, a rapid influx of thermal energy in an isolated area (ie the SPOT) from a large electrical current (most often from a capacitor discharge circuit) which quickly fuses two metal sections without imparting large thermal gradients along the length of metal components that will cause warping, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_welding

Quote from wikipedia;

Shot welding is a type of spot welding used to join two pieces of metal together. This is accomplished by clamping the two pieces together and then passing a large electric current through them for a short period of time. Shot welding was invented by Earl J. Ragsdale, a mechanical engineer at the Budd Company, in 1932 to weld stainless steel.

The Budd Company (actually one of their employee's) INVENTED Shot/Spot Welding. It was the only practical way to easily weld stainless steel together.

Waiting for your edumacated explanation about the differences between;

"Shot Welding" (pressing two thin pieces of metal together in a localized SPOT and sending a large electrical current through the localized SPOT)

And

"Spot Welding" (pressing two thin pieces of metal together in a localized SPOT and sending a large electrical current through the localized SPOT).

A person could argue that an electrical resistance "spot" weld with a current density exceeding 100 amps/sq inch is a "Shot Weld" and a weld with a current density less than 100 amps/sq inch is only a "Spot Weld", but that's like arguing about what really qualifies as "Scotch". Both liqueurs and welds are pretty "strong"...

I'm just saying that the Budd Folks have a demonstrated track record of making cars that lasted 80 years, The Ft Wayne Folks are certainly free to hack up those cars how ever they wish. But we need to wait 80 years to see if the Ft Wayne Folks are indeed as smart as the Budd Folks. And as far as I know the Ft Wayne Folks (skilled as they are) have never hacked up a SS car to add open windows.... Might go smoothly, might be an unexpected debacle.

And I was referring to Thermal Diffusivity, not Thermal Distortion. Thermal Diffusivity is a material property that effectively determines the "speed of heat" through a material when a thermal gradient is applied. It is the lower thermal diffusivity of stainless steel than enables shot/spot welding without major warping.

Those cars have been twisting/warping/stretching/shrinking/rolling for 80 years, if you sever too many of the original structural welds you should anticipate some "shifting" of the alignment of the body parts/panels. Might be negligible, might be "concerning", might be "unrecoverable".

I wish the Ft Wayne folks all the best, I myself would be very leery of hacking into the wall/window structure of those cars to add "drop windows". Perhaps a "slider" window that slides to the side to open 1/2 of the historical structural window opening. Those would be a custom window which may be cost prohibitive. But then again a custom sized "drop down" window is likely cost prohibitive as well.

Seems to me that a few ESE cars with original windows and ample HVAC Capacity and one or two open window coaches / observations might be a winning combination. If you look at all the "high budget" Alaska RR fleets they have mostly climate controlled cars with about 10% "open window / open platform" equipment.

Indeed, I should clarify -- these would not be drop-in windows into the body of the car, but some removable or sliding structure. I can't cite the car/order number, but I'm fairly sure there were "modern" NYC cars with 2 or 3-pane window structures where the bottom half slid aside (and I think these were featured in bedrooms.)

Kelly - RPCX 102 (1947 Budd product, NYC heritage) has openable windows. IIRC, the frames fit the standard window opening. The bottom panes are split and slide upward. The car is now at the Dennison Railroad Depot Museum and runs in their Polar Express trains.

Yep, that's one of them. Thank you for the reminder!

Budd shotwelding was not only patented, it was secret. Not military classified but Budd Co. secret.

When Philadelphia's PSIC ordered their second group of stainless steel commuter MU cars, the order went to St. Louis Car which was unable to assemble them. They acquired the nickname "Lateliners" when they were not delivered on time. They had to hire Budd to complete the carbodies, and Budd exclused all St. Louis employees and did all the welding under cover.

Note: SEPTA later dubbed the 1956 Budd Pioneer III cars (Pioneer I was an airplane; Pioneer II wsa the Pioneer Zephyr) Slverliner I, the high-performance 1963 Budd cars Silverliner II and the 1967-1968 St. Louis Lateliners, Silverliner III. SEPTA now has Silverliner IV anv V cars, not built by Budd.

Phil Mulligan

I love it when someone whose knowledge of welding extends to reading Wikipedia tries to school someone. All you did was double down on ignorance. Wilful ignorance can be... troublesome.

And I am more aware than you of the difference between thermal diffusivity and thermal distortion. Only the first is concerned in Shotwelding; the second would only be a concern if the car had been in a fire, or had been maintained by Pullman-Standard employees /s

I doubt if there would be a problem with stress-induced distortion causing the carbody structure to move excessively. I also doubt that, even if some settling were observed, it could not be amended with some strategic jigging. That said, those of us who remember introduction of the Amfleet shells remember that they were built with camber, much like some long flatbed semitrailers, not so much to accommodate additional load as to prevent sag over the lifetime of the cars.

If the windows only have to be made removable, and fit in the standard window-opening frame in the car, then the only thing needing to be 'added' is channels in either side of the frame that allow pins or tabs on the side of the windows to be inserted into appropriate gaps in the channel, the window slid up, and then the bottom pressed laterally into a lock to make the weatherstrip seal around the outside. I was concerned with the weight of a removable window with FRA-spec glazing being too heavy to remove and install, but since that appears to be no problem, most of the fabrication issues then reduce to how the mods can be made with minimal impact on the historic fabric. I have some thoughts on this but would need to see an actual car with a window removed to be reasonably sure.