The partnership with Steamtown and the LWHS has ended

superheater · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm **Posts:** 2605

Ed Kapuscinski wrote:

People also want titties and beer, but that doesn't mean that they're opening a strip club in Yellowstone.

Keep that in mind when talking about your expectations for the NPS.

When somebody thinks that part of the interpretive experience is reopening the infamous DL&W frequented house of ill-repute then this will relevant.

Until then it's just stupid.

PMC · **Joined:** Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm **Posts:** 2872

Ed Kapuscinski wrote:

People also want titties and beer, but that doesn't mean that they're opening a strip club in Yellowstone.

Keep that in mind when talking about your expectations for the NPS.

HEAR HEAR, I'm glad that someone gets it.

Crescent-Zephyr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm **Posts:** 1799

bigjim4life wrote:

Ed Kapuscinski wrote:

People also want titties and beer, but that doesn't mean that they're opening a strip club in Yellowstone.

Keep that in mind when talking about your expectations for the NPS.

No, but more “themed” train rides could go a long way. I’m not talking about visiting this destination to go do something - I’m talking beer/wine trains, Halloween trains, etc. Have the IHS do that, the Santa trains they run are VERY popular, and they’re the same thing as the regular yard shuttles, but with Santa and stuff. Do similar things for Halloween, Easter, etc and watch attendance/train ride visitation rise…

I actually think it shouldn’t be legal for non-profits to operate these types of trains on a purely entertainment basis (Thomas, polar express, Dino train, etc.) - you could have Christmas themed trains that have an educational or historical aspect to them and stay on mission.

The amount of time, energy, money, and resources going into these types of events at museums is tragic.

superheater · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm **Posts:** 2605

PMC wrote:

6-18003 wrote:

At a minimum, to me, that would include a stabilized physical plant, a return of mainline steam, improved volunteer and community relations, and either measurable, steady progress of restoration efforts on outdoor equipment or deaccession of at risk pieces.

I think many of you are creating a straw man with this sort of definition, because it isn't the way the Park Service defines its mission, i.e.: "The National Park Service preserves unimpaired the natural and cultural resources and values of the National Park System for the enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations. The National Park Service cooperates with partners to extend the benefits of natural and cultural resource conservation and outdoor recreation throughout this country and the world." https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/index.htm

That is all US citizens, not just those in the area, or those of us whose relatives worked there (as my great-grandfather, whose photo I posted previously, did for a time). There isn't anything about mainline steam or restorations. Nor is there in the budget justifications for parks found here: https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/budget.htm You WILL see a lot of justification in terms of the dual goal of protecting our natural and cultural heritage and making it available for the enjoyment of citizens. Steamtown's website says: "Steamtown NHS is an industrial heritage site dedicated to the role that steam railroad transportation - and the people who made it happen - played within America's Industrial Revolution" but again the emphasis is on preserving our industrial heritage and making it accessible to we citizens. Who wants to bet against the idea that most visitors, as with the majority of tourist-train riders, couldn't care less if there is an operating steam engine on the train they ride or in the shop they tour?

As far as privatizing a national park, groups try to force the government to give up we citizens' assets (for pennies on the dollar) from time to time, e.g. every so often Grand Canyon or Yellowstone is suggested as a privatization target, because a private operator such as Dis-nee could make more money running it like a business. Well, sure they could, but they would not necessarily be performing the dual goal of protecting our heritage and making it available to all of us (not just those who could pay a Dis-nee World-size entry fee). When Dis-nee tried to take over the Manassas battlefield site two decades or so ago, and call it "Dis-nee's America", it went over like a f*rt in an elevator, being called incredibly insensitive by many famous historians, (e.g. David McCullough), especially given Dis-nee films such as the "Song of the South".

We US citizens paid $66 million for the Scranton former DL&W shops in 1995, which is the equivalent of $131 million today, to "preserve unimpaired" one of the last intact mainline railroad steam shops "for the enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations." But you can bet that no one is offering $131 million for it right now. I'm sure that some are "generously" offering to take it off we citizens' hands for next to nothing though.

You people who want something else: build something else. If you want more mainline steam, use your money for mainline steam. But the national park system belongs to all of us, and those of us who were opposed to a Jellystone Park type Dis-nee thing at Yellowstone will also be watching carefully so that if, by some horrible twist of fate, the park is privatized, that it doesn't go for anything less than $131 million.

Assume for a minute that privatization is the issue in this thread. It's not, but let's pretend that it is:

“Economics is haunted by more fallacies than any other study known to man."

-Henry Hazlitt

And today's fallacy is the the fallacy of sunk costs. If there's a need or desire for an entity to divest itself of some property or asset because the future value is inadequate or the costs excessive or both-then the historic expenditures are irrelevant to the decision.

That's why the Steamtown Mall (also constructed, at least partly with public funds) sold for approximately $5M after being constructed for $90M +various costs over the years.

It's also a comment on the value Scranton real estate, that a relatively new structure with greater potential reuse is going for about a nickel on the dollar.

Of course, if we're going to assert the immutable benefits of government ownership to deal with personal poltergeists maybe we can derail the post even further. Let's discuss how the Marines are now resorting to public appeals to find an F-35 that depending on the variant and cost estimate costs $110-135M per copy.

At least this wasn't a "broken arrow" incident, like the January 1961 Goldsboro incident when we lost a couple of Mark 39 H-bombs that were partially armed over North Carolina.

superheater · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm **Posts:** 2605

bigjim4life wrote:

Ed Kapuscinski wrote:

People also want titties and beer, but that doesn't mean that they're opening a strip club in Yellowstone.

Keep that in mind when talking about your expectations for the NPS.

No, but more “themed” train rides could go a long way. I’m not talking about visiting this destination to go do something - I’m talking beer/wine trains, Halloween trains, etc. Have the IHS do that, the Santa trains they run are VERY popular, and they’re the same thing as the regular yard shuttles, but with Santa and stuff. Do similar things for Halloween, Easter, etc and watch attendance/train ride visitation rise…

Wine train:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz0pplSi3j0

6-18003 · **Joined:** Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am **Posts:** 728

superheater wrote:

bigjim4life wrote:

Ed Kapuscinski wrote:

People also want titties and beer, but that doesn't mean that they're opening a strip club in Yellowstone.

Keep that in mind when talking about your expectations for the NPS.

No, but more “themed” train rides could go a long way. I’m not talking about visiting this destination to go do something - I’m talking beer/wine trains, Halloween trains, etc. Have the IHS do that, the Santa trains they run are VERY popular, and they’re the same thing as the regular yard shuttles, but with Santa and stuff. Do similar things for Halloween, Easter, etc and watch attendance/train ride visitation rise…

Wine train:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz0pplSi3j0

That was a recurring event driven by the Carbondale Chamber of Commerce. Steamtown did provide the cars and I'm assuming also the Alco via the DL. The trip was a one-way excursion, and departed from Carbondale making several stops on its way to Steamtown. The stops ensured that the drinking was done *off* the cars. Coach buses returned the riders to Carbondale.

I believe that 2015 was the first year, with two trips, and the same arrangement reapeated again for 2016 and 2017. The 2015 and 2016 trips were sell outs, at 300 seats per trip. I can't remember if the 2017 trips did as well.

Debbie Conway deserves credit for some (most likely) creative cutting through the red tape on that one.

6-18003 · **Joined:** Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am **Posts:** 728

PMC wrote:

6-18003 wrote:

At a minimum, to me, that would include a stabilized physical plant, a return of mainline steam, improved volunteer and community relations, and either measurable, steady progress of restoration efforts on outdoor equipment or deaccession of at risk pieces.

I think many of you are creating a straw man with this sort of definition, because it isn't the way the Park Service defines its mission, i.e.: "The National Park Service preserves unimpaired the natural and cultural resources and values of the National Park System for the enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations. The National Park Service cooperates with partners to extend the benefits of natural and cultural resource conservation and outdoor recreation throughout this country and the world." https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/index.htm

That is all US citizens, not just those in the area, or those of us whose relatives worked there (as my great-grandfather, whose photo I posted previously, did for a time). There isn't anything about mainline steam or restorations. Nor is there in the budget justifications for parks found here: https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/budget.htm You WILL see a lot of justification in terms of the dual goal of protecting our natural and cultural heritage and making it available for the enjoyment of citizens. Steamtown's website says: "Steamtown NHS is an industrial heritage site dedicated to the role that steam railroad transportation - and the people who made it happen - played within America's Industrial Revolution" but again the emphasis is on preserving our industrial heritage and making it accessible to we citizens. Who wants to bet against the idea that most visitors, as with the majority of tourist-train riders, couldn't care less if there is an operating steam engine on the train they ride or in the shop they tour?

As far as privatizing a national park, groups try to force the government to give up we citizens' assets (for pennies on the dollar) from time to time, e.g. every so often Grand Canyon or Yellowstone is suggested as a privatization target, because a private operator such as Dis-nee could make more money running it like a business. Well, sure they could, but they would not necessarily be performing the dual goal of protecting our heritage and making it available to all of us (not just those who could pay a Dis-nee World-size entry fee). When Dis-nee tried to take over the Manassas battlefield site two decades or so ago, and call it "Dis-nee's America", it went over like a f*rt in an elevator, being called incredibly insensitive by many famous historians, (e.g. David McCullough), especially given Dis-nee films such as the "Song of the South".

We US citizens paid $66 million for the Scranton former DL&W shops in 1995, which is the equivalent of $131 million today, to "preserve unimpaired" one of the last intact mainline railroad steam shops "for the enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations." But you can bet that no one is offering $131 million for it right now. I'm sure that some are "generously" offering to take it off we citizens' hands for next to nothing though.

You people who want something else: build something else. If you want more mainline steam, use your money for mainline steam. But the national park system belongs to all of us, and those of us who were opposed to a Jellystone Park type Dis-nee thing at Yellowstone will also be watching carefully so that if, by some horrible twist of fate, the park is privatized, that it doesn't go for anything less than $131 million.

That website description, and pre-web print editions, have lowered expectations a lot since 1995. I guess it's easier to change a website than restore a locomotive.

Steamtown was always envisioned to have working steam and excursions beyond the yard. It may not be spelled out in the 1986 legislation that created the park but read any early literature including internal reports and you'll see that it was always part of the mix. Heck, just pull up footage from the 1995 grand opening and tell me you don't feel cheated in 2023.

I agree not every visitor probably cares if there is steam at the head end of the consist, but enough do. Anyone who's peeked at the long range ridership numbers knows that to be true. This may be more pronounced at SNHS due to the nature of the line, but it's not like they are setting the world on fire with diesel power, either. Steam or otherwise, there just isn't much happening in the park. And a main partner, who raised funds and worked events for decades, was just uncerimoniously jettisoned.

Your preservation-heavy premise falls on its face anyway. Has a reduction in managerial focus on steam resulted in a better state of preservation for other artifacts? Not that I can see.

I am not advocating for privatization of the entire site. At least, I never used to, as I always felt that the roundhouse complex was well maintained and better in keeping with traditional NPS roles (however, even that seems to be too much for the park service to keep up with now). But if the NPS can't or won't run mainline steam, what is the harm in vending that aspect out?

You can argue that the park is underfunded, but isn't it the job of the superintendent to fight to rectify that? Either by lobbying for funding, engaging with community partners to fill gaps, etc, etc. Read the house bill from 1984 that failed to pass - the Steamtown equivalent of The Federalist Papers; what I outlined is what was envisioned.

bigjim4life · **Posted:** Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:56 pm

6-18003 wrote:

bigjim4life wrote:

6-18003 wrote:

Yet, the NPS rejects offers by qualified entities to lighten the load.

What official, serious offers have been made? The idea has been thrown around endlessly - but you’re saying that direct, serious, written and planned offers have been made?

Yes. The entities involved can decide if they want to come forward or not, it's not my place to disclose who. But a serious offer was proposed by proven and compentent partners directly to the Sec of the Interior during the Trump admistration.

Actually - I do have a follow-up to this. Who turned it down/declined/rejected it? The Park Service itself? The Steamtown Superindentent/staff themselves? Maybe this is a systemic issue beyond the Superintendent's (whoever it is at the time) control...? I mean if the offer is there, and it's positives all around - why would it be turned down? It just doesn't make sense.

superheater · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm **Posts:** 2605

6-18003 wrote:

That was a recurring event driven by the Carbondale Chamber of Commerce. Steamtown did provide the cars and I'm assuming also the Alco via the DL. The trip was a one-way excursion, and departed from Carbondale making several stops on its way to Steamtown. The stops ensured that the drinking was done *off* the cars. Coach buses returned the riders to Carbondale.

I believe that 2015 was the first year, with two trips, and the same arrangement reapeated again for 2016 and 2017. The 2015 and 2016 trips were sell outs, at 300 seats per trip. I can't remember if the 2017 trips did as well.

Debbie Conway deserves credit for some (most likely) creative cutting through the red tape on that one.

I will tell as somebody who worked a couple of those C-Dale trips, as well as a special shuttle trip by some school teachers and who worked the day of the infamous (now long defunct) Franconia Brewery trip, alcohol presents unique issues.

On the Franconia trips, we had some extra unheated cars put on, and on the way back there was problems because this trip encountered a late fall Pocono temperature plummet. In those days, there was generally an armed law enforcement ranger and i think there was an alert put out because of some folks that were none to pleased to find out they had a long ride back. I was pleased to be yard bound with Mr. O'Brien at the throttle of the 26, especially when the crew did not receive the beer free dinner promised.

The second trip was with some school teachers who had as I recall a catered event in the roundhouse to be followed by a trip to the Lackawanna Hotel. There were some that told us what nice young men we were, a couple that feigned falling and couple that played the old phone company line to reach out and touch someone.

The wine trains generally went well, but there's always somebody that has just enough to be uninhibited and boisterous, some that play sleepy and some that walk funny.

I'm not axiomatically against wine or beer trains, but you need consumption limits and an experienced crew. There are tricks to dealing with people who have imbibed, specifically how to de-escalate when necessary, such as when somebody decides they are going to fly off the vestibule, rather than wait for the crew to set out step stools.

superheater · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm **Posts:** 2605

bigjim4life wrote:

[
What official, serious offers have been made? The idea has been thrown around endlessly - but you’re saying that direct, serious, written and planned offers have been made?

Yes. The entities involved can decide if they want to come forward or not, it's not my place to disclose who. But a serious offer was proposed by proven and compentent partners directly to the Sec of the Interior during the Trump admistration.[/quote]

Actually - I do have a follow-up to this. Who turned it down/declined/rejected it? The Park Service itself? The Steamtown Superindentent/staff themselves? Maybe this is a systemic issue beyond the Superintendent's (whoever it is at the time) control...? I mean if the offer is there, and it's positives all around - why would it be turned down? It just doesn't make sense.[/quote]

Likely to know this, one would have to file a FOIA request and I'll bet you'd find plenty of redactions.

Chris Webster · **Joined:** Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am **Posts:** 1087

6-18003 wrote:

Steamtown was always envisioned to have working steam and excursions beyond the yard. It may not be spelled out in the 1986 legislation that created the park but read any early literature including internal reports and you'll see that it was always part of the mix.

What "was always envisioned" is irrelevant. What matters is the legislation.

The NPS is part of the Executive Branch so it exists to enforce the laws (legislation) passed by the Legislative Branch.

Ed Kapuscinski · **Posted:** Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:32 am

superheater wrote:

Likely to know this, one would have to file a FOIA request and I'll bet you'd find plenty of redactions.

Or, you know, someone could also devote their time and efforts to something productive.

The best revenge is to live well.

We all know, by now, that Steamtown has hurt you. At some point though you've really gotta move on. If you're contemplating wasting our tax dollars with that FOIA request, maybe you should instead setup an appointment with https://www.betterhelp.com/. I know they're subject to some controversy right now, but I've heard good things from friends and they might help you move past your trauma.

superheater · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm **Posts:** 2605

Ed, thanks so much for the recommendation.

I'm sure you would only attest to the efficacy of these services from frequent personal use.

I hope they were able to help you after that embarrassing faux pas in which you hypothesized your wife being killed by a plane crashing into her office in the thread about the Texas Airshow incident last November.

superheater · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm **Posts:** 2605

Chris Webster wrote:

6-18003 wrote:

Steamtown was always envisioned to have working steam and excursions beyond the yard. It may not be spelled out in the 1986 legislation that created the park but read any early literature including internal reports and you'll see that it was always part of the mix.

What "was always envisioned" is irrelevant. What matters is the legislation.

The NPS is part of the Executive Branch so it exists to enforce the laws (legislation) passed by the Legislative Branch.

The control of the executive branch is rather complicated and nuanced.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R45442

As a general rule, the CRS is one of those rare birds that produces thorough, well researched, objective information free from spin-the political kind, not the quantum kind.

Bruce_Mowbray · **Posted:** Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:22 pm

Steam Excursions were and still are a goal of Steamtown. After the 2317 and 3254 were done with being beat to hell and sidelined, there was a big push for work on the 3713. In 2016, after the completion and testing of the completely rebuilt BLW #26, all of the shop crew were fully involved with the 3713. Lots of big and small projects were completed in house and contracted out. (see Facebook posts from 2016 forward on the Project 3713 FB page). Posts were made almost on a daily basis for work being in progress or completed. The superintendent often commented on all of the work being done on the 3713.

In 2020, it was decided to stop all work on the 3713 and to contract the rest of the project out. Funding was requested numerous times, but denied each time. The shop was assured that funding is coming and were told that nobody was to work on the project as this would jeopardize the receiving of the funding.

In 2021, in need of a mainline steam locomotive, the CN #3377 was abated and brought into the shop for a boiler and mechanical evaluation so that when the funding came in for the 3713, and the locomotive was sent to an outside vendor, the boiler and mechanical evaluation could begin on the 3377. The idea was to take the 3377 parts off the now beated 3254, and put them back on the 3377. Work had not started as the person in charge of the shop was not going to allow the bits and pieces of 2 locomotives to be scattered around in an already crowded shop.

At this time, and while still waiting for 3713 funding, the shop forces was ordered to fix up some of the static exhibited pieces. The Bullard #2, (complete tear down cosmetic restoration) and the fireless cooker (completely new cab, windows and doors, and fresh paint and lettering), along with the American Chemical tank car (end repairs, correct lettering, new running boards, and new paint) were the focus of shop personnel and volunteers.

Keep in mind, in 2021, that there were are 11 mechanics in the shop, working on restoration projects, keeping the cars in service, and performing all of the required maintenance and repairs on the #26.

Fast forward to today. Of those 11 mechanics, all skilled, and each with more that 20 years in the field of steam era restoration and repairs, 5 have retired. There were 2 newbies hired in 2020 but they did not have any railroad experience. One is a machinist, one a fabricator. They did pick up on some of the nuances of the shop, but a few years is not enough time to teach everything there is to know about railroad work. There is a new person in charge of the shop. He has lots of great ideas and the Iron Horse Society is a great group of enthusiastic people who get things moving in a positive direction. so lets hope something good happens real soon.

PS If the park service were to privatize the railroad side, the vendor would still be managed by the NPS (government) That’s all I am saying about that.