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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:45 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 1652
Location: Byers, Colorado
I worked in Guatemala for three different employers, and I was the last guy to get anything steam related out of the country. This happened 30 years ago when I brought the tenders from the Sumpter Valley articulateds back to Oregon, for use with their original locomotives, SVRy #19 & #20. As I have explained several times on this forum, STEAM LOCOMOTIVES CANNOT BE REMOVED FROM GUATEMALA because they are covered by national patrimony law. PERIOD. I only got those tenders out by describing them as "railroad water cars" on the sales contracts and customs documentation, and by scrupulously avoiding the words "steam locomotive". They cost $6,000 for the pair, less shipping, etc, which wasn't a rock bottom price back then.

I've only been to El Salvador once, in 1988, and they weren't exactly overflowing with steam power. So far as I'm aware, they have two heavy 2-8-0s which were operable 20 years ago, and a few smaller engines on display. If it's like Guatemala, the locomotives might be operable, but have a long list of defects and ailments, and would cost a fortune to bring up to FRA standards. I can't tell you anything about whether or not they have national patrimony laws prohibiting export. They DID have a national railroad museum, as does Guatemala, last I knew.

What I CAN tell you is that a three foot gauge engine in Colombia was advertised several years ago on this site, with a fresh rebuild for $1.5 million. What the ad failed to mention is that, yes, you could buy that engine legally, but you couldn't take it out of the country with you. All it takes is one guy on the dock with a gun and a badge.

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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:06 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:33 pm
Posts: 139
Patricio wrote:
If the C&TTRR and D&SNGRR need more motive power why not see what the authorities in Guatemala and El Salvador have. I was there, several times in the last 20 some years or so and all have lots of steam (such as German made mikados [in the interior of Guatemala] and 2-8-0s in El Salvador and both with US build engines in Guatemala City). I believe this a gold mine of three foot stuff that now could now be had at rock bottom prices.


Aside from Sammy's very good reasons, you missed the whole point. C&TS is not necessarily suffering from a shortage of operable steam at the moment. What they are trying to do is to conserve the number of serviceable days on their locomotives and to have reliable emergency "road" power available at the flip of a switch if and when necessary. The Cumbres & Toltec Scenic is long devoted to keeping alive the former fleet of the Denver & Rio Grande, and I would reckon that if money trees grew trackside, you'd see most of the K-37's in line for restoration before anyone went shopping south of the border.


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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 10:43 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:42 am
Posts: 77
Location: Either behind my desk or on my phone
There's an historical note here which you all seem to be missing. During World War II the Army(?) reallocated some D&RGW engines to the WP&Y to assist in building the Alaska highway et c. I don't believe they were ever returned. It seems appropriate the the two remaining narrow gauge portions of the D&RGW are obtaining surplus power from the White Pass.

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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:02 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 1652
Location: Byers, Colorado
msrlha_archivist wrote:
The Cumbres & Toltec Scenic is long devoted to keeping alive the former fleet of the Denver & Rio Grande, and I would reckon that if money trees grew trackside, you'd see most of the K-37's in line for restoration before anyone went shopping south of the border.


There you go --- If the C&TS already has a bunch of derelict, worn out, D&RGW locomotives, they would not be doing themselves any good by looking elsewhere for the same thing from a different RR.

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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11825
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
If Central or South American surviving steamers are anything like the last survivors of steam in Cuba before many/most of them were mercifully scrapped, I'd rather stay a few towns away if and when they attempted to fire one up.................

Seriously. Go new build, or sacrifice a couple extant cadavers for complete rebuild with new welded boilers, oil firing, the works.


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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 1652
Location: Byers, Colorado
I met Major Withun while working for Ferrovias Guatemala, and asked him about visiting Cuba. He advised me that I'd be too scared to get close enough to take pictures, much less firing or driving... and I was damn near killed several times in Guatemala !!!

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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 12:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11825
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Today's Trains Magazine Newswire report on this story includes one other detail not highlighted before:

Quote:
Funding will come from money received under the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021.


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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 1:32 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:23 am
Posts: 73
wilkinsd wrote:
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
Why call someone a name just because you don’t agree with them. That’s the biggest problem we have in this country. Let’s communicate with maturity.


No. Calling you an "armchair preservationist" isn't name calling.


LOL That's priceless!


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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:59 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 327
Location: Los Altos, CA
Add me to the list of people who approve of this purchase. These locomotives are getting old enough to be preservation candidates.


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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:28 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1832
Location: Back in NE Ohio
I haven't heard any strong objections to the "M-7" center-cab Diesel at the EBT that kept them going for awhile, and still gets used on lighter ridership days. These are tourist railroads that have to operate in the real world, not museum recreations, but they do strive to keep the historic appearance as much as possible. I'm sure C&TS will repaint their Diesel in a tasteful D&RGW-ish period paint scheme, imagining what a D&RGW narrow gauge Diesel might have looked like. Save the most valuable operating assets for those of us who truly appreciate seeing them operate on special occasions for decades to come.


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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 2461
Location: The Atlantic Coast Line
PaulWWoodring wrote:
I haven't heard any strong objections to the "M-7" center-cab Diesel at the EBT that kept them going for awhile, and still gets used on lighter ridership days. These are tourist railroads that have to operate in the real world, not museum recreations, but they do strive to keep the historic appearance as much as possible. I'm sure C&TS will repaint their Diesel in a tasteful D&RGW-ish period paint scheme, imagining what a D&RGW narrow gauge Diesel might have looked like. Save the most valuable operating assets for those of us who truly appreciate seeing them operate on special occasions for decades to come.

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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:00 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1716
I would never define the C&TS as a “tourist railroad” and they advertise themselves as the “most authentic steam railroad in North America.” This definitely makes them less authentic than they were before, that is not up for debate.


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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:41 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:15 pm
Posts: 610
Authenticity? With the previously stated new build coach stock, smooth rails, and locomotives in good condition? If you want truly authentic you’ve got a lot of things that would not be acceptable with today’s service requirements.

It’s necessary for these railroads to have a solid contingency option, and that comes with diesels. If there is an issue of let’s say fire danger, I’d rather the diesel operate than nothing at all.

I’m honestly surprised that the C&TS only invested in one. If I were them I’d grab a couple of more just in case.


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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:08 pm
Posts: 328
Location: Alberta, Canada
A truly authentic narrow gauge shortline experience would involve track conditions more like those on a certain Argentinian line. Not to mention wood cars with coal stoves and oil or Pintsch gas lighting, which makes for a great combination in derailments.

At the end of the day we all have to live within our budgets, and it sounds like this new diesel is going to help the C&TS to better accomplish this in the long term.

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 Post subject: Re: C&TS to buy MLW HR412W Diesel #114 from WP&Y
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:32 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 1184
Location: Tucson, Arizona
msrlha_archivist wrote:

Aside from Sammy's very good reasons, you missed the whole point. C&TS is not necessarily suffering from a shortage of operable steam at the moment. What they are trying to do is to conserve the number of serviceable days on their locomotives and to have reliable emergency "road" power available at the flip of a switch if and when necessary. The Cumbres & Toltec Scenic is long devoted to keeping alive the former fleet of the Denver & Rio Grande, and I would reckon that if money trees grew trackside, you'd see most of the K-37's in line for restoration before anyone went shopping south of the border.


The other point is that the diesel electric motors are insurance for those days when they cannot operate the steam locomotives due to extreme fire danger. Cancelling trains is not optimal for business. Fires can get out of control extremely fast in hot, dry conditions. The putt putt they run behind the train and tanker are basic level fire protection, but nothing more.

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