It is currently Thu Aug 20, 2026 7:28 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 1:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:51 pm
Posts: 466
Location: Ipswich, Mass., Phoenix, AZ
softwerkslex wrote:
It is part of their policy to hire local residents. It was official policy back in 1986 when I applied.


Hiring local residents is one thing, hiring family members another. I wonder how many better qualified applicants were turned down for a job to make room for a son, nephew, etc. I'm sure that good paying, steady jobs are at a premium in that region, and railroad jobs are jealously guarded.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 1:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:17 pm
Posts: 334
Location: Houston, TX
Railroading has always hired family members as it was a good practice in the old days and it made for continuity. Rules were also religiously enforced to the extent that the violations could be observed and it was accepted. The brotherhoods would defend their own to the extent that they thought possible but neither they nor the RR would condone actions that could cause accidents or injury.

Small or isolated operations do not enjoy the same luxury. You discipline one employee who is remotely related to another, and tomorrow, at least two people don't show up for work and can't be located but you still have a train to run. The more interrelated families that you have and the smaller the personel pool, the worse the problem gets until the employees eventually dictate to management how things are to be done.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 1:31 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:51 pm
Posts: 466
Location: Ipswich, Mass., Phoenix, AZ
Right on elueck.
It really gets down to a management issue: a weak or poorly qualified manager will soon find that the organization has run away from him and is running itself in spite of him.
Years ago when I was in the Army I read a unfortunate officer's efficiency report which captured exactly this situation: "When Colonel so-and-so directs the orchestra doesn't play".


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:45 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:23 am
Posts: 462
Location: Sheboygan County, Wisconsin
While not directly relevant to the specific topic here, I would like to add something about the Grand Canyon Ry. since it was also brought into the discussion.

I worked for the Grand Canyon Ry. in 1999. Since I had previous experience around steam, they gave me an odd weekly schedule with M-T off, then W-Th-Fr days and Sa-Su nights.

I worked those nights with Eric Hadder and Greg Clark and would like to say here that this was one of the best experiences of my life. The GCR was a most professional operation and had the most steam tight boilers that I have ever been around. I was treated well and fairly by all and have been warmly received whenever I have visited since. Ervin White rented a room to me and I consider him to be a square shooter. A fine bunch of folks. Just my two cents.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:58 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:19 pm
Posts: 9
In the case of Cass, it took a complete change of who was running the railroad to change things. Since DGVR took it over from the WV State Park Authority, things have changed at Cass for the better.

There are more people working there now not related to the local families. A great example is the train crew on the Greenbrier Express. Of the five individuals that regularly work it, only one had family ties dating back to the Mower Lumber era.

Trainrider47 wrote:
Regarding the statement that there should not be family members hired, the remoteness argument is a good one but there is a historical aspect as well. Cass, for example, has had multiple families with multiple members working for the railroad over the years. The same was true back when it was the Mower Lumber Co.

Michael Allen


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 11:53 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:15 pm
Posts: 1
FRA rules for electronic devices and blue flags absolutely are enforced at museums and tourist railroads. I hope these allegations are not true, disappointing if they are.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 2:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:58 pm
Posts: 40
While I recognize this thread might be getting off topic, I’ll drop my two cents. Many tourist railroads are “railroads” in so far as their trains run on tracks. I once watched a volunteer run organization with three people on the ground giving three different signals to a single engineer, who acknowledged all of them. Enthusiasts aren’t railroaders and are dangerous at best; go on YouTube and you’ll see what I mean.

The allegations contained in the legal brief are pretty awful, I hope justice prevails.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:43 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:05 pm
Posts: 1130
Location: MA
jmaxwell wrote:
FRA rules for electronic devices and blue flags absolutely are enforced at museums and tourist railroads. I hope these allegations are not true, disappointing if they are.

Only if it meets the definition of a railroad which a lot of organizations don't. If Farmer Brown decides to buy a couple of tank engines and cabooses and build some standard gauge track around his property there is really no regulatory authority over the operation, And they're technically free to take their phones out and stream themselves running their steam locomotive on TikTok.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2023 1:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 2567
Location: Thomaston & White Plains
Cross a public road, and you're no longer "insular".

FRA regulations are minimal standards. Any operation can use more stringent standards.

Consider your responses to questions about industry safety norms when you are on a witness stand, facing a hostile interrogation by a plaintiff's attorney. Maybe those blue flag regulations weren't such a bad idea after all. Maybe it would have been a good idea to take unsafe persons out of operating service before they injured or killed someone. When you're being grilled in court, it's way too late.

Insular, FRA-Lite, General System, it doesn't matter. This stuff can kill and maim you and others. It's not a joke. PAY ATTENTION.

And, RCD, let Farmer Brown launch his 0-4-0T, and you can be sure the FRA will be involved. It's in the regulations-- "emergency enforcement powers". Look up "Medina Steam Tractor Incident".

We came very very close with Gettysburg- close to having every locomotive boiler filled with concrete. The other (non-steam) stuff can get us all shut down, too. And it doesn't have to be FRA-mandated. Unaffordable insurance costs, or outright refusal to even quote coverage, will have the same effect. If an insurance underwriter has read the allegations in that lawsuit....

Howard P.

_________________
"I'm a railroad man, not a prophet."


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2023 2:17 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:31 pm
Posts: 73
All I can say is the chickens come home to roost. I had the unfortunate experience of having a contract job to do on the CT&S about twenty years ago. The same people who caused that to fail then are the ones in charge now. My family and I spent over 18 years living in New Mexico. And we were in the minority the entire time. I will say that some of the most discrimination I felt was in Chama at the CT&S. Having a beer I told a guy about wanting to go to Tierra Amarilla the county seat to just check out the bars. He says, no gringo that's not a place you should go. Another guy told me when I said something moving there, we just want all you anglos and the effing indians to leave. I stayed many nights in Chama and Antonito, and my family camped at Cumbres pass while i worked at the shop in Antonito. And most people were great. It's super saddening what has happened. But that was the trajectory then, and hopefully things may get better now.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2023 4:56 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:05 pm
Posts: 1130
Location: MA
Howard P. wrote:
Cross a public road, and you're no longer "insular".

FRA regulations are minimal standards. Any operation can use more stringent standards.

Consider your responses to questions about industry safety norms when you are on a witness stand, facing a hostile interrogation by a plaintiff's attorney. Maybe those blue flag regulations weren't such a bad idea after all. Maybe it would have been a good idea to take unsafe persons out of operating service before they injured or killed someone. When you're being grilled in court, it's way too late.

Insular, FRA-Lite, General System, it doesn't matter. This stuff can kill and maim you and others. It's not a joke. PAY ATTENTION.

And, RCD, let Farmer Brown launch his 0-4-0T, and you can be sure the FRA will be involved. It's in the regulations-- "emergency enforcement powers". Look up "Medina Steam Tractor Incident".

We came very very close with Gettysburg- close to having every locomotive boiler filled with concrete. The other (non-steam) stuff can get us all shut down, too. And it doesn't have to be FRA-mandated. Unaffordable insurance costs, or outright refusal to even quote coverage, will have the same effect. If an insurance underwriter has read the allegations in that lawsuit....

Howard P.
I have seen and heard of it all I've seen organizations that run on state-owned track that are lease and adhere to strict FRA regulations and inspections, I've seen organizations where nobody can quite figure out who the regulatory authority is but they adopt practices from a variety of other organizations and input from knowledgeable and experienced railroaders to keep things running safely and smoothly. and then you have things like that infamous video surfacing on the internet of that idiot who derailed that narrow gauge steam locomotive. And I am very aware of the Medina Steam Tractor Incident. The last I checked except for regulations what can be brought to a fairground which was already regulated Farmer Brown can still run his steam tractor and give hayrides or 0-4-0T rides to his heart content. Not saying I think it's right but on private property you're free to run a GP9 into a ditch full of crashed school buses.
https://youtu.be/wZSeLrY41O4?feature=shared


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2023 5:01 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 1087
RCD wrote:
Not saying I think it's right but on private property you're free to run a GP9 into a ditch full of crashed school buses.
https://youtu.be/wZSeLrY41O4?feature=shared
That "GP9 intentionally crashed into a pit" video is fake.

_________________
--
Chris Webster


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 4:42 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1799
While a few of these issues are unique to the Cumbres and Toltec and the area they operate in, I've seen this type of behavior at many tourist railroads and museums. I mean, Ross, who at least at the time was still an engineer at New Hope, said women don't belong in the cab of a steam locomotive on this very forum.

The organizations with young and diverse volunteers and employees are the ones that will thrive for generations to come. The others need to clean house NOW. We as a preservation community need to demand it.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 5:26 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:35 pm
Posts: 419
Location: NJ
I will predict this gets settled out of court. If I were a defense attorney with the state agency involved I would not want to get in front of judge or jury trying to justify the alleged behavior.

This thread triggered a memory of mine. About 10 years ago I began to volunteer for a local historical group. On the first day of a work session, one of the long time members started on a rant about a certain ethnic group. My children are of that ethnic group. Needless to say it was the last day I volunteered with that group.

As others have stated any larger business and most government or quasi government agencies have programs in place to remind / teach employees how not to act and how not to harass. And darn near every example of how not to act in those programs was listed in the legal brief.

Has any of the alleged behavior been so blatant as to be seen by their customers?

_________________
cv the civil E in NJ


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cumbres & Toltec Discrimination Lawsuit
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:49 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2477
cjvrr wrote:
Has any of the alleged behavior been so blatant as to be seen by their customers?
My experience as a customer has always been to be greeted warmly by the Angelos on the payroll, while the Hispanics universally come across with an attitude of "leave your money on the counter and go away", which may have something to do with my not having been back as a paying customer for many years.


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: