>>Don't forget the china locos are junk and don't last. NO one has been able to keep them running without constance [sic] repairs.

Last time I worked on an American built steam locomotive, no one could keep THEM running without contant repairs!

In fact, the ten year old diesels on the commuter railroad I work for have to go in the shop for a few days every 45 days, even without working weekends; and being ten years old, about every second month one blows a turbo or something else that costs $50,000 or more to fix.

So what is your point?

Steve

SZuidervee@aol.com

> Last time I worked on an American built
> steam locomotive, no one could keep THEM
> running without contant repairs!

> In fact, the ten year old diesels on the
> commuter railroad I work for have to go in
> the shop for a few days every 45 days, even
> without working weekends; and being ten
> years old, about every second month one
> blows a turbo or something else that costs
> $50,000 or more to fix.

> So what is your point?

> Steve dear steve my point is the china locos are new not 50 years old an tired. Anew loco should not need so much work. Ask the man who ownes one. rob.

I never heard Valley RR or Susie Q complain about 1647/142...

eledbetter@rypn.org

>>Steve dear steve my point is the china locos are new not 50 years old an tired. Anew loco should not need so much work. Ask the man who ownes one. rob.

I am going to delicately tread on this one without flaming or defaming. I think one has to consider the experience and specialized skill of the locomotive operator when decrying the quality of the Chinese loco.

I will first admit that the first thing one should do with a Chinese loco is throw away all of the globe valves and replace with good American bronze valves, else you wil be grinding in valve seats at every boiler wash.

But after that, with proper normal maintenance, the locos can hold up. Now down to cases: you have not said whose locos do not stand up, but there are only three locos and four owners involved.

The Valley Railroad was sucessful in their operation, they also have some of the leading steam CMO talent in the country. They sold the locomotive because of the mortgage burden, and they "received an offer they could not refuse" from the insurrance company of....

...The second owner, Susquehanna. The Susquehanna does not have a full time dedicated staff to the locomotive. Unfamiliarity with adjusting the self-adjusting driving boxes on the locomotive led to it riding hard and wearing out some motion work. When the locomotive was recently leased to the Vermont folks, the aforementioned Valley RR CMO was brought in to make the loco right again, and the loco did fine.

Next loco is owned by the same "corporate shell" as the former Gettysburg 1278. "Nuf' sed".

Last loco in the Midwest I am not as personally familiar with, but I know of the big picture. It is of the larger class JS 2-8-2, and was not purpose built for America with the modifications specified by the CMO of the Valley RR. They also got their initial FRA boiler certification/Form 4 by congressional intervention, and not by doing the proper complete Form 4 engineering workup. This is not rumor, a copy of their original Form 4 is on a government internet site. Lastly, the final group of JS locomotives built by that factory did have quality control problems. This was demonstrated on a trip I made to China four years ago to see steam. Most of the highest number JS class were behind the shops, while older numbers were working. It was confirmed at several sites in China that the local railroad operating authorities did not like the quality of the final year production of the JS locomotives.

The Chinese broker in NYC has recently put a few locos on eBay at $185,000 (no reserve); outshopped and on the docks FOB USA port. Now, this does not include compliance with the latest 1472 day regulations, and we will have to wait and see if this will be possible with any Chinese locos not built with the full penetration staybolt welds and certified firebox steel. Even if it cost another $200,000 to get the boiler legal, you still have a loco with more capacity than a Mogul, and will ride better in the typical one-half reverse running of most tourist railroads. And at half the "asking price" of the Mogul.

Steve Zuiderveen


SZuidervee@aol.com

Dear Steve:
Just a couple of comments:
First, it is true that the globe valves on SY 1647 were junk. We replaced the smaller (<1-1/4") valves with Lunkenhiemers (some of which had to be returned to the factory in Cincinnati due to quality control issues). On the larger valves (especially turret valves), we replaced the carbon steel seats with stainless steel seats, reletively easy as the seats are threaded into the valve body. The biggest problem were the metric threads (we had to borrow machine time on a lathe that could cut them). The valve disks were bronze, we left most of them alone, although eventually they were to be replaced with stainless as well.
In addition to the globe valves, we spent a fair amount of time making the locomotive "user friendly", rounding of sharp edges, removing un-needed piping, installing steam heat lines to the locomotive and tender, etc.
As you mentioned, The Valley had a difficult time keeping up the payments on the locomotive and it was sold to the NYS&W as their No.142.
Bill Drotar, a long time Valley associate was hired to care for the locomotive and it operated flawlessly while he was in charge of it. After he left it was not maintained and fell into disrepair.
You mention that the locomotive pounded badly because the automatic driving box wedge adjusters had not been kept under tension. Once in the middle of the night I recieved a phone call from one of their crew members who was convinced that the pistons were loose on the rods because the engine was pounding so bad and riding so rough.
After young Herrick Hensel was hired by the NYS&W to maintain the locomotive, the crews said that he had "rebuilt" the engine. All he had done was get tension on the springs that adjust the wedges. The pounding stopped and the engine rode well again. When Herrick ceased working on the locomotive due to health issues, the locomotive again fell into disrepair.
In 1998, when the locomotive was leased by the Vermont Railway System, I took charge of the the locomotive at Whitehall, NY and was told that it was pounding due to "water condensation". In fact, the main rod small end brasses were pounded out of shape due to being allowed to run loose (out of adjustment). A weeks work at the VRS North Walpole, NH roundhouse put the locomotive right again and it performed flawlessly for that entire summer, operating throughout the State of Vermont at speeds of up to 50 MPH.
In my opinion, the long series of mechanical problems and failures with No. 142 are the result of it being operated in, for the lack of a better term, a "diesel culture" by diesel orientated staff. It is unrealistic to expect a steam locomotive to operate properly unless it is cared for by people who are experienced with steam and can convince management that it must be inspected, maintained and operated in a different manner than a diesel. It is unreasonable to expect a diesel engineer to know how to lubricate a steam locomotive (as the latest failure illustrates).
Knowing which handles to twiddle to make the thing go doesn't make you a steam qualified engineer. At The Valley's "Your Hand on the Throttle" program (November 15-23, 2003; still a few slots left, sorry for the commercial message) we teach 8 people per day how to operate a steam locomotive (running light), and most of them get the hang of it pretty quickly.
I'll cease ranting now, as you may have guessed I continue to retain rather strong feelings about this locomotive.
J.David


jdconrad@snet.net