Thank you, Alexander. That was very helpful.

Listening to the whistle, I'm a little confused. To me, it sounds similar to a Southern Pacific 5 chime (which is one of the few whistles that I, personally, am not a fan of). If that is a Baldwin 3 chime, why does it sound so different than usual?

I've said this before; I'll say it again:

Always remember that steam whistles were considered interchangeable parts by most railroads, and that there was little to no motivation to remain consistent with "factory-built" or original-issue parts. As long as the whistle fulfilled the function of warning people, and in at least some cases was acceptable to passengers' ears (you tried to not put a high-pitched screaming whistle on a flagship passenger train, for example), AND the whistle could fit the steam outlet pipe or valve, they weren't terribly concerned.

There were exceptions, of course. CP whistles reportedly had a different thread type from most locomotive hardware. And some of the last whistles made were designed for higher boiler pressures (N&W articulateds, UP 4-8-4s and articulateds, etc.). Also, some Southern railroads persisted in allowing engineers to customize their locos, including whistles.

But it's like replacing a starter in a car. Do you insist on factory-issue from the same manufacturing run, do you use the "name brand" part the dealer and factory shop manual call for with a stiff price but a one-year warranty, do you go get the aftermarket starter with a lifetime warranty at half the price, or do you take one out of a junkyard for $10-20? And all for a car that you just want to keep running for another year or two, not 50 years and going to car shows? The same thing happened with whistles back then, and it continues today with air horns.

The concept of "the original whistle" is at times a farce, even if you have original documentation.

BLW 60000 did run on the Southern Pacific. Maybe that's where it got that whistle.

If you look at 60000 it has an SP-style smokebox front and an SP-style Vanderbilt tender as well, although on the SP it used an SP oil tender, rather than convert 60000's coal tender to oil.

Earl's note is a good point. The whistle is one of the easiest things to change on a steam engine, and makes a big change in how the engine presents itself.

RDG built the T-1's with a high-pitched single-note whistle (possibly inherited from the I-10 2-8-0 donor engine) and in Ramble service RDG usually substituted a Reading passenger chime on one of the T-1's, and the 60000's whistle on some Rambles. After the Rambles, I've heard recordings of 2102 with a PRR passenger chime.

Interestingly, 60000 has an SP-style 5-digit numberboard next to the stack, but since the engine has a 5-digit number itself, there's no place to put SP's "X" for an extra train!

Phil Mulligan

Looking at this pic, it very well seems as though 60000 has a Star Brass/SP Desert 5 Chime.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=1146013

So, I have 2 more questions to ask regarding steam locomotive whistles.

1) I know that there are DM&IR 3 chimes. Are these whistles shop-made by the DM&IR, or are they just Hancock long-bell 3 chimes?

2) I saw a steam locomotive whistle compilation video on YouTube, and they identified the whistle on U.S. Army/Huckleberry Railroad #152 as a Pere Marquette 5 chime. Did the Pere Marquette make their own whistles, and, if not, what whistle does #152 use?

I'm just asking these questions again since I never really got an answer, and I'm very curious about these whistles.

As a rule, railroad-made whistles are MUCH rarer than you seem to think. They tend to be the product of either a major railroad with the capacity to build its own locos (PRR, N&W, etc.), or a remote backwoods line cobbling something together by trial and error. Even with railroads that had their own shops and production facilities, many of them still tended to order whistles from makers like Hancock or Star. I would be staggered to hear that PM or DM&IR made their own whistles.

To be honest, even the self-professed experts in specific railroads are often clueless about actual whistle usage and origins on those lines. The PRR guys are a step ahead with the actual drawings, and numerous examples of both the noted three-chime passenger and screeching freight "Banchee" whistle abounding with unique angular dome mounts, valve levers, etc. But even they can never give us a straight story on how the original three-chimes were modified to give the deeper sound heard prominently on "7002," 1223, and the many recordings of K4s's on the New York & Long Branch.

So, based off everything I've researched and seeing "The Empress" in person, CP #2816 has 2 different chime whistles (1 air-operated CP 5 chime next to the smokestack, and 1 manually operated 6 chime back near the cab).

My question is: is the 6 chime on #2816 a CP 6 chime, or is it a different 6 chime (and if it's not a CP 6 chime, what kind of 6 chime is it)?

The air actuated, super-heated steam 5 chime 'mountain' whistle up front is from ex CPR #5935 2-10-4 'Selkirk' currently on display at ExpoRail in Delson, PQ, the manually operated, saturated-steam 6 chime near the cab is a 'new production' casting manufactured off of blueprints from the CPR archives.

I worked on the program in '05/'06 and Al Broadfoot and I are friends. Back then I asked him about the original 5 chime and why it was replaced, he told me the original was destroyed by bees over a long period of time while the loco was static in Steamtown.

As an aside, I have a very extensive personal collection of sound recordings of CPR steam in the '40s and '50s from all across Canada with exception to anything East of the Montreal service area. That 6 chime is NOT standard CPR issue. Yes, it absolutely is 100% authentic CPR design (I have a copy of the blueprints), but I have no record of it being used 'back in the day' - either in company records or on a recording - on any piece of equipment. The blueprints list it as a 'passenger whistle', but I believe it was a prototype design that never went into production.

The CPR of that era was a stickler for standards...to that extreme, I have in my records a blueprint for a gauge used to grade eggs for what dimensions were acceptable and what was not in passenger dining car service. When it came to locomotive whistles in the H.B. Bowen era (CPR Chief of Motive Power and Rolling Stock), there were 3 types of whistles permitted - a brass 3 chime (mfg by Thomas McAvity & Company of Saint John, New Brunswick), a cast 5 chime 'standard' or a cast 5 chime 'mountain' (denoted by a higher 5th chamber which resonated differently and carried farther in the mountainous area of Calgary West), either manufactured 'in house' by the CPR shops or again by McAvity. This is supported by a 1947 internal memo from HB Bowen regarding locomotive standards across the system.

So why did #2816 get a non-standard, 'prototype' CPR 6 chime during it's rebuild? I posed that question to Al back in '04.

His response?......"Why not. Had steam stuck around*, they would have put it on anyway". As for who made it and when, I don't know, I didn't ask at the time..I'll ask Al next time I talk to him.

So there you have it, as Paul Harvey would say, now you know the rest of the story.

73
RwC

* - A 1952 internal CPR document regarding dieselization slated 1969 as a target date for complete, system wide transfer from steam to diesel in order to 'maximize the capitol invested in newly produced steam locomotion' (the last new steam locomotives on the CPR were built in 1949). This document proposed 'a modernization period' in the late 1950's where steam locomotives were to be 'upgraded' with modern appliances -including new whistles- in the course of their regular Class 3/2 overhauls. This of course never happened as regularly scheduled mainline steam across Canada ceased in April of 1960.

EDIT With apologies to my friend A who goes by the handle 'whitworth' (whom I can vouch for his authenticity as being part of the crew at the BC Rail shops who rebuilt #2816) who posted earlier in the thread about the '6 chime' being re-fabricated 'off the original that was on the engine' - I had a good friend (who has long since gone onto the 'great roundhouse in the sky') who was a fireman out of Montreal in the late '50s who routinely fired #2816 on commuter service. I asked him about the whistle...he replied 'she sounds different now'....I asked him if it had a 5 or 6 chime at the end and he replied "5 chime for sure....I'd like to think I should know, I wiped it down with a mit full of cotton waste too many times to count...."

It is not a major issue but when the NKP 765 (767 then) came out of the Fort Wayne Lawton Park in 1974 (yes- fifty years ago in Sept. 2024) it had two ways to blow the Nathan six chime whistle. One was the manually pulled lever above the engineer's head and there was a Viloco squeeze type air operated valve (either ON or OFF). NKP S-2 Berkshire engineers had a choice. The rebuild crew of 1975-1979 had a major disdain of the air operated valve and did not reinstall it. A year or two later, FWRHS's little Wolcottville Sand & Gravel orange 4 wheel switcher (No. 6?) needed a valve for the air horn so the Viloco valve was used. Later, the adjoining industrial park bought the little switcher but since it was going to be right next door, nobody worried about it. A couple years later, the industrial park scrapped the switcher unexpectedly. Oops!

A fascinating topic, thank you.

I’d be interested in finding out more about the Star Brass short bell five-chime whistle, commonly noted as being used by UP and SP. I’m interested because I’m an Aussie, and the Victorian Railways standard five-chime whistle is apparently based on the Star Brass design, with some modifications. At least they sound similar in YouTube videos!

In 1903, Thomas Tait of the Canadian Pacific became the Chairman of Commissioners of the Victorian Railways. He greatly improved how things were done, introduced new locomotives and rolling stock, and started work towards suburban electrification. The VR was far better off in 1911 when he returned to Canada than it was when he arrived. I’m going to take a guess that the five-chime whistle design was just one of the improvements of the time.

Cheers,
Matt

Just thought I'd add a bit here, Norfolk and Western Historical Society also has a well indexed database and a variety of drawings on both N&W and Virginian whistles:

https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/listdoc ... RS&id=5740

https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/listdoc ... RS&id=5735

Best
Ken Miller

Sadly, a common enough end for valuable pieces of equipment that don't seem important to people who should know better. Those Viloco "squeeze cocker" operating valves are practically unobtanium nowadays.

Woodstown Central 0-6-0 #9 has arrived at its new home and is slated to be pulling passengers soon. While watching videos of #9 being moved to her new home, I noticed that she is wearing a boiler pipe 5 chime whistle. Does anyone know if this was made during the steam era (if so, who made it), or was this made specifically for #9?

One of the videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THFk10qIKgs