That is precisely the best thing to do. I will never see the wreck of the Titanic with my own eyes, but courtesy of the recently released high definition scans of the wreck, I can explore the infamous ship as it lays on the seafloor from the comfort of my own home, at my own leisure, without costing me a dime or the risk of being atomized. Plus, I can look in detail at any part, for as long as I want, from any angle I want, with complete illumination rather than a narrow beam of light clouded with particulate, though a 4" porthole while laying on my side in a cramped titanium sphere with 2 1/2 miles of ocean above my head. What more could you ask for?

Added bonus, integrated with today's 3D printing capabilities one could conceivably print off scale sized models of the wrecked equipment based on the scans for your own enjoyment/study. Its been done already with a Coke bottle from the wreck of the USS Arizona....as kitchy as it may seem, you too can have your own scale sized USS Arizona replica Coke bottle as a desk ornament....

Forget raising the #3512 or any of the other equipment for that matter. Scan it all in high definition, take the money that would have been wasted on the salvage, conservation and display of the rusting and deteriorated hulks, and spend it on an interpretive pavilion on the edge of the lake showing the documentary, the 3D scans and perhaps the recovered steam dome cover. THAT will bring in far more tourist dollars than the locomotive ever would. Let sleeping dogs lay, the allure of the 'train at the bottom of the lake' is far more intriguing than a rusty relic perched on a plinth.

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RwC

Royal has done a remarkable forensic study of what was recorded! I believe this is the most comprehensive guide thus far, given his knowledge of the 2-8-0's structural anatomy. I have to agree, salvage is out with the possible exception of some loose artifact which may be scattered, and there have to be some.
I do like the idea of a 3D scan to map the sight! Where that technology takes us is a good start to venerating a small, but significant, part of western Canadian railroading's history.
Go with the scanning!

Save the $$$, leave everything in place, scan the wreck in 3D, raise the steam dome cover, build an interpretive center, show the scans, play the documentary and market the 'train in the lake' as a tourist attraction. As was said in Field of Dreams, 'People will come Ray, people will come'....

Here's an excellent example of what is possible with the technology available -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5mCNwXXUxI

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RwC

On the subject of sunken locomotives and YouTube videos, I discovered this one featuring what appear to be four locomotive boilers in the wreckage of the MV Empire Knight, a British cargo ship wrecked on Boon Island Ledge off York, Maine during World War II, while on a voyage from Saint John, New Brunswick to New York.

https://youtu.be/DJyjwzNxeK0?si=Wiuag8bXwF2imCVi

I couldn't find any information online about any locomotives in her cargo. There is a fair amount of information about other aspects of her cargo though, mainly about the eight tons of liquid mercury that has leaked from canisters she was carrying in her #5 hold, and also possible munitions on board. The whole after end of the wreck is an exclusion zone where diving, fishing, anchoring, etc. are not allowed. However, the bow section ended up on the other side of the ledge when the vessel broke in two, and that's apparently fair game for diving, and happens to be where these boilers are. In the video they're calling them "locomotives", but I'm not seeing any signs of wheels or frames among the wreckage.

I'd never heard of the MV Empire Knight wreck before, so I did some digging. Because of the toxic mercury cargo and its proximity to the US coastline, there have been numerous Government funded studies and subsequent academic research papers published about her over the years that can be found online. Specifically because the cargo is the problem, the manifest of the MV Empire Knight has been well documented and is referenced frequently in the reports I read.

This is typically consistent with all the reports - "At the height of WWII in February of 1944, the 428-ft British ship EMPIRE KNIGHT ran aground on Boon Island Ledge off York, Maine during a storm. It broke in two and sank with the stern section in 243-ft of water where it remains today. Her hull contained 10,000-bbls of diesel fuel oil, military tank and locomotive parts, 5-in cannon shells and 16,000-lbs of elemental mercury stored in 221 glass and steel carboys."

https://meridian.allenpress.com/iosc/article/2014/1/299468/197895/When-Oil-is-the-Lesser-of-Two-Evils-Comparative

So no complete locomotives, only parts.

(EDIT) - One of the more detailed cargo lists I came across describes '4 replacement locomotive boilers' which is consistent with the wreckage in the video you shared. I couldn't find anything about who made them, for what locomotive class they were meant for, ect, but the description indicates that it was only shells and no frames/running gear.

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RwC

I watched the video. Given these quotes above I am confused as to why it took the current crew 6 of their 7 available days to locate the wreck when it was already located and filmed almost 30 years ago. Also, why all the skepticism from the locals that they would not be able to find it when it had been previously found and filmed almost three full decades ago? Did the previous group that surveyed the site in the 90s refuse to provide location information, fail to record the location, or record it improperly?

Excellent question. Mr. Chapman was present during the 1995 expedition and made the same request of the team to retrieve the bottle of whiskey from his jacket in the van. The '95 expedition was no secret, it was publicized in the local paper and images of the wreckage were shown on regional TV. CP Corporate Archives knew that the wreck had been located (that's how I found out about it), and the film crew would freely mail out DVD copies of the raw footage to anyone who asked. The big difference was the '95 team's intent was just to go find and film the wreck, not make a documentary to publicize their achievement. They found it, filmed it and went home (the team was an amateur group of shipwreck hunters from Vancouver and the US).

They had an active sonar that mapped the bottom in real time and were able to locate the equipment within hours of setting out.....after all the route the barge travelled was known so they only had to search along a straight line. The technology was crude by today's standards but a giant, locomotive sized crater on an otherwise flat and featureless lake bed showed up easily.

As for the recent documentary and why it is portrayed as a 'new' and 'challenging' discovery....I don't know, I spoke directly with the producer Colten Wilke while the film was in post production and he was fully aware of the '95 expedition, so they can't say they didn't know about it. No knock against what they achieved but perhaps a 'little white lie' to make the program more dramatic and interesting to boost distribution sales of the film?

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RwC

RwC - So what you are saying is that they wasted one and a quarter hours of the viewers' time with fabricated drama to hype a minute or so of footage? If so, a very poorly done documentary. More like "Real Housewives of 3512".

_______________
"Check out the BIG BRAIN on BRAAAD!" - Jules Winnfield

I recently viewed it on Youtube, and while the last half hour was fascinating, it took the same time it generally takes to locate Noah's Ark, Big Foot, and shipwrecks full of gold. It came down to "We're almost out of time", and then the payoff, which is enticing but technically hobbled in the final chase. The project is terrific and the subject absolutely warranted the search, the expense, the discovery. It simply finished with everybody involved wanting more and clearer, better, results.

Okay, they've located the wreckage precisely - which is, of course, the critical first step. They've shown a perfectly intact and preserved caboose, a steel snowplow, and the locomotive tender. But like eating one potato chip, we want more and I'll suggest it was left in this manner to secure further interest and further funding, to go back and do a complete site survey, which I sincerely hope is done.

Goal #1 has been accomplished, albeit in a strung out program. Goal #2 will be to fund a return to the site for "dessert".

No, I didn't say that, I'm just stating the facts as they are without bias. However, if that's your takeaway and my position being stated, if you were to ask me I'd be inclined to agree with you. I believe that a documentary should be wholly about fact, and if there's an inconvenient truth, it should be addressed and said documentary be judged on how they deal with a fact that contravenes their narrative.

In this case, I think the fact they chose to completely ignore (and essentially erase) the '95 expedition completely undermines the legitimacy of their ethics, but not detract from their efforts and accomplishments. They DID document the wreckage in full color and HI-Def AND expose the story of the #3512 to a whole new audience who would otherwise not know about the story. I think thats awesome.

But the whole 'we're the first, it's a challenging mystery, it's never been done before, against impossible odds...'...total BS. Had they acknowledged the previous expedition and said 'we're here to continue the work, detail the wreck with improved technology and use modern Social Media to educate public to share the story'....totally different prerogative.

On the flip, one thing I'm curious about to see how it plays out......once the wreckage was discovered in '95, someone contacted (then) CP Rail to purchase the ownership and salvage rights of the equipment. As everything had been 'paid off' from the Trust equipment funds they had been originally purchased from when the equipment was lost, no insurance claim was made, so CP still had legal ownership over everything that went into the lake in 1947, and even though it had been 'written off' as inactive equipment, it was all still on record and CP retained full ownership. When the request to purchase it came in, the legal team had to dust off the records in Windsor Station in Montreal, agree that they could indeed sell it and draft up a bill of sale. All of which they did, compiled in an extensive legal document transferring full ownership, as is, where is , including liabilities and indemnities absolving CP Rail -was sold to said person for $1 (CDN).

I was not privy to the discussion but I did have the opportunity to review the completed and signed transfer of ownership document as well as speak to the CP Corporate lawyer who drafted the document and rest assured, the entire manifest of what went into Slocan lake January 1st, 1947 was sold lock, stock and two smoking barrels (including past, present and future environmental liabilities) from Canadian Pacific Railway Inc. LTD. to a private individual in 1996.

I don't recall that person's name, but if anyone associated from recent documentary tries to raise so much as a scrap of metal from the lakebed.....they may just have to have to deal with the real legal owner of the wreck, and that would blow the cover completely off of the narrative of who found it first and when.

just my 2 cents, YMMV.

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RwC

A thought that crossed my mind is, I wonder if they actually found the site right away with the 1995 expedition's information, but then the ROV failure left them with not a lot of underwater footage and an hour of documentary to fill, so they had to contrive a much longer "search" operation.

Whatever the case, the whole program was s-t-r-e-t-c-h-ed to fill air time. I think they had money to produce the documentary and used it for the purpose is was assigned. By leaving us "hanging" in deep water with a taste of what's there, another grant will likely be applied for.

I just finished watching the video.
I agree with the comments about stretching out the drama. This seems to be true of many similar “lost” documentaries.

Regarding CP operations on the lake, how long after the sinking incident did this car float service continue? Is there still rail service to Slocon, or any trace of what remains?

Wesley

The last train across the lake was December 21st, 1988 and the Subdivision was abandoned shortly thereafter. What remains of the loading ramps are still visible on either end of the lake.

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR/ships/LandR/history.htm

https://www.bigdoer.com/40327/then-and-now/rosebery-bc-then-now/



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RwC

I'm really curious about the bent metal with the rivet holes that can be seen protruding from the underside of the locomotive. Is anyone able to identify what part it actually is? It's hard to identify. It looks to be some sort of sheet metal but as to what component it is, i'm not sure.

Going back to the 3D scan idea, i think that would reveal a lot about the condition of the wreck and preserve it in a digital manner. What i'd love to find out? The condition of the main frame as well as the driving wheels, axles, and rods and what they look like. And maybe a look at the cab end and items such as the Johnson bar, throttle, firebox door and the various gauges and valves that are all hidden from view by the silt.

The rust doesn't look too bad (for being underwater for almost 80 years) even on the areas of the wreck that are exposed to the water, so the buried areas must be in an even better state of preservation by comparison.