Talk of Thomas as an icon leads me into the dangerous practice again of thinking, this time about ways in which we can appeal to younger and very much younger people.

At the risk of generalization, attention spans do seem to be shrinking and we preserve and interpret mostly artifacts from a day when more time was taken to attend to fewer things. While this doesn't necessarily apply to Thomas aged children, it does seem prevalent among our pre teen / teen age and 20's population.

Music based on railroad rhythms such as jazz, blues and R&B has been displaced in popular culture by hip hop, rap, and urban sounds more like a New York traffic jam.

Speaking as a dinosaur, what can we do to make the history we are working to preserve relevant and meaningful to two generations many of us older guys don't truly understand?

I know there are exceptions to the generalizations mentioned above. We at the Savannah Roundhouse currently have an intern and volunteer from Armstrong State who is very interested and committed despite being a 19 year old girl. We have given her the nastiest jobs we can devise and we still can't chase her off. So how can we get more like her involved?

Dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

I don't have a specific answer to your question, but I am dating a woman with a three year old boy who just loves Thomas the Tank Engine and trains. I am looking forward to introducing him to the joys of railroading, it would be nice to have at least someone other than me in the house who understands trains, and perhaps help scrape rust someday.:-)

rickrailrd@aol.com

> I don't have a specific answer to your
> question, but I am dating a woman with a
> three year old boy who just loves Thomas the
> Tank Engine and trains. I am looking forward
> to introducing him to the joys of
> railroading, it would be nice to have at
> least someone other than me in the house who
> understands trains, and perhaps help scrape
> rust someday.:-)

Well, I always find this as being an interesting topic. Since I'm 19, I hope that I can offer some credible thoughts.

Firstly, let me talk about some of my past. Some of you may already be aware of it so I will apologize for potential repitition. I'm born and raised in Omaha--home of UP. My dad was the first person to get me involved with trains in general. We live next to a BNSF mainline and I have tons of memories of running to the bridge a block away to catch the train storming up "the hill." The second person in getting me hooked on trains is a now deceased CB&Q engineer who lived several blocks away. My dad and I would go to his house. I can remember quite fondly of being completely enthralled with his many stories.

As time went on, my interest increased. First it started with train watching, then books and magazines, then trips, and right on down the line. At age 17 I started Heartland Railroad Historical Society. This group is dedicated to the preservation of railroad structures. You may have read about our roundhouse project in Nebraska City that we are making steady and lately significant progress. I have presided over this group for almost three years now and have never regretted a day of it. Now seeing my success in that, I look ahead with optimism even though I haven't quite decided what role I want to play in the railroad industry.

Even though my experience may be a fluke, there is a common thread. It began when someone planted the seed necessary to get me started. I started out simple and worked my way up the ladder. When I was a child, I was greatly impacted by the various train toys and shows that were tailored for kids. Going to museums and riding various passenger trains helped.

My recommendation is do enough to get children's tongues wet. Sit back and encourage them when they want to be. Let them explore Thomas the Train and Shining Time Station.

If they turn out not to be railroad buffs, then at least they had the chance. Anymore, it seems children have few chances to be impacted by trains.

These are just some quick thoughts, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

Thanks,
Gerald Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society

Heartland Railroad Historical Society
hrrhs@aol.com

We have the same problem with the IC 2500. We would love to get more people involved, especially young people but there just doesn't seem to be interest there.

Kevin Witzel
Age of Steam Memorial IC 2500

offngone@mvn.net

I am a 23 year old member of the Michigan Transit Museum with 10+ years experience. I am completing my degree work in recreation management. I guess that combination equals finding creative ways to get people motivated and involved. In prior generations individuals would become involved in railway preservation because of direct memories they have had. Generation X, Y, & Z may not have those direct memories. In order to stimulate their interest in railway preservation creative ways will have to be devised to lure them into the preservation fold, Either with in-direct stories from neighbors or family; or by relating a current mode of transportation to a past mode (i.e. light rail to trolleys or commuter rail to interurban). or with an ingenious children's character (Thomas the tank engine). Any of these ways can plant the seed to grow. It is just necessary for the leaders of preservation efforts to realize what worked in the past will not always work in the future. Initially the field of dreams approach may work (if you build it they will come), but ultimately new approaches will be needed to keep them coming. I believe we must work together share ideas and support one another. that's where forums such as this, and museum associations prove highly valuable.

Michigan Transit Museum
sutterd@hotmail.com

I can relate to this thread, because I'm 18 years old. I have been interested in trains all my life, literally. My first excursion was a trip from Knoxville, Tennessee to Cumberland Gap, KY behind former Savanah& Atlanta 750 nee Florida East Coast light 4-6-2 80 and two SR FP-7s. I also had a lionel trainset when I was 3 years old and my interest in trains continued. I started watching Shining Time Station when it came on the air in 1989 and started buying the ERTL diecast models. While some diehard railfans find it the utmost disgrace to have all kinds of "grossly" painted engines with faces attached to them, I find nothing wrong and applaud the Reverand in England who created Thomas. But anyhow I would like to be involved with more things, but it is difficult where I live. My dad belonged to and I frequently went with him to a model railroad club, but since we were evicted in November 1997 the club broke apart and since we do not have space for a layout (well we set up a little track on a table occasionally) our models have been parked and collecting dust as of late. In South Carolina, there is not much interest in Railroads or trains. Our local chapter of the NRHS has slowly lost members ever since the end of NS steam and lost money on some Amtrak trips run in 1998. While I intend no disrespect to the SCRR Museum in Dillsboro, I was very dissappointed when I visited there a few years ago. Most of the equipment is covered with rust from years of storage in Charleston. There are no operating steam engines in SC and the few that do survive aren't in shape that would be useful to restore to service. As a result finding steam around here requires an 120,130, or a 250 mile trip to the NCTM at Spencer, GSMR, or TVRM. I really don't know why more young people don't want to get involved. I've never had any other friends my age that can relate to with my interest in trains, i've mostly talked with my dad's friends who I have become acquaintences with, but as far as most of my friends are concerned my train talk is a foreign language they can't and don't understand. While in this post I know i've derided most of preserved equipment in South Carolina, I will say that I was proud about 4 years ago when a local teen named Trey Davis helped start a campaign to restore the remaining portion of the former Southern Railway 1905 passenger station here in Spartanburg. The structure had caught fire and was severely gutted in July of 96 and the future wasn't clear. But the city of Spartanburg acquired it and turned it into a visitors center. Other than that, the interest in trains seems to be waning, and that is a shame.

st82@Juno.com

I correct myself, the South Carolina Railroad Museum is in Winnsboro, SC, my mind was thinking about the Great Smokey Mountains Railroad in Dillsboro, North Carolina. I apologize for the mistake.

st82@Juno.com

I believe you start 'em young. I was taken to Orange Empire when I was 10 years old to help with a trolley restoration. The work was hard dusty and hot, but the guys on the project went out of their way to make me feel like one of them. I now take my 11 year old son and seven of his friends to do the same. At first others were suspicious and apprehensive of a bunch of 11-12 year old kid "roaming" at the museum. We pretty much ignore it and did our projects. Meantime, my "boys" have requests to join several projects at the museum, because they come to work and learn about electrical, plumbing, paint, power tools (and of course they get a cab ride after the work is done.) We haven't discussed much about lead paint, but their parents don't seem to mind as long as we are cautious and responsible.

They may fall away when they discover something with more curves than a Birney Safety Car or Mikado, but they'll always remember us and bring their dates and ultimately the fourth generation in this process, irrespective of the lack of daily interaction with the artifacts we preserve. Hook up with Boy Scouts, church youth groups, Boys & Girls Clubs...any organization where there are kids bored with the same old SEGA or GameBOY routine...and invest a little time teaching them skills and a little history. We'll be paid back in spades.

wyld@oc-net.com

Hi Steven;

Savannah isn't far from Charleston and if you want a taste of steam we will begin operating our tank engine GOAT one wewekend a month starting April. You are more than welcome to come on down and get your hands dirty.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> I correct myself, the South Carolina
> Railroad Museum is in Winnsboro, SC, my mind
> was thinking about the Great Smokey
> Mountains Railroad in Dillsboro, North
> Carolina. I apologize for the mistake.

To all concerned:

I would say hats off to all of the those who have written. The nice thing about the Internet is that it levels the playing field so that anybody with knowledge can get into the game.

The Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport was founded by a handful of college students who wanted to "save" (they did) a trolley car, and many more since. They didn't have a business plan and all the other excuses older people use to shoot down a project. They had a vision and that is the most valuable thing that the young can bring to preservation.

If there are young people on the fringes of your group, invite them in! They won't have an interest in the organizational politics and they won't want to hear whining, but they will want to make a positive impact (even if it's scraping rust). The stories listed previously should be an inspiration to us all.

I wish I had the opportunity to link up with the preservation movement when I was younger, but Montana makes South Carolina look very nice in terms of access. Keep your eyes open and looking up, be upbeat about what you are doing and you never know who will want to become involved.

Good luck to all, oh, and keep thinking (for those who fear the trouble it might bring).

mikefrommontana@juno.com

I think the problem of attracting a new generation is really two related problems: 1. speaking to a youth audience through interpretation and 2. attracting and retaining youth workers and volunteers.

Fortunately, I think the same basic rules apply to both, that is: if you ahve good programs in general, you will have good youth programs. Let me explain what I mean.

Let's take interpretation first. Dave and others are right, the public is increasingly removed from any personal connection with railroads beyond being stuck at a grade crossing. It amazes me 30 years after the fact the the bankruptcy of Penn Central is still the defining memory or railroads in the country--everyone assumes that they are bankrupt, old-fashioned and decrepit. But that's reality and we have to deal with it.

The way to get people engaged with the railroading story and our railroad collections is by telling stories--preferably stories about people, not technology. You need to train your docents and tour guides to tell good stories, and write your placards and brochures to do the same. Examples of stories you can tell with your collections are limited only by your imagination: several good ones can be found in books like John Silgoe's "Metropolitan Cooridor." An example: the interpretive speech at a trolley museum should talk about the birth of suburbia, about how people wanted to escape the city and return to a garden-like pseudo-country home of greenery and quiet, and about how it was streetcars that made this dream possible--NOT AUTOS! The lecture should NOT concentrate on explaining the inticacies of window construction which make car 3222 a Brill semi-convertable. The story need to be about people.

The same with steam railroading. The placard for old number nine should not concetrate on the fact that its a 2-8-0 with a narrow firebox and slide valve chests, it should explain that old #9 had lots of wheels so it could travel over light track, which made it possible to construct less expensive railroads to serve the small towns and farming communities of wherever, linking the farmers to the national market.

OK, so that's interpretaiton, what about volunteering? Well, I first became involved with museum and preservation work as a teenager (albeit not railroad work--it was the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum). However, I think the lesson's I learned at the Smithsonian and later as a volunteer at other RR museums and tourist lines hold true--to wit:

The best way to attract and retain youth volunteers is to have a good volunteer program in the first place. THis includes, in no particular order:
1. clear expectations
2. good orientation training
3. consistant supervision
4. a minimum of hazing and backbiting

I can't emphasize #4 enough. I can't tell you how discouraging it is to show up willing to learn and willing to work, eager to give time and pick up new skills, and be turned off by 50 your old boys who don't want new kids playing with their toys. It's happened to me--though I won't name the culprits. Have a program which makes the new volunteer feel a valued member of a team, and you'll be able to make use of and retain your youth volunteers as well as your older ones.

OK, soapbox mode off.

eledbetter@rypn.org

As someone who is 20 years old, I know how crappy today's pop culture is. Movies are crappy, music is formulaic and attention spans are non existent. Due to the lackluster society I decided to work for a small tourist railroad. I chose this because not only do I have to pay for college but I like the idea of firing a locomotive more appealing to flipping burgers or stuffing envelopes. I've learned that although the work is dirty, hot, and rough I enjoy the challenge. This winter I was able to work durng my xmas break. Trying to remove track from a turntable and turn it when the snow is drifted 4 foot high may not be someone's idea of fun, but fellow students' said they were bored over break, while I had my hands filled degreasing a locotive and polishing running gear (not to mention the frozen turntable!) I don't know what exactly sparked my interest, but I was immersed in trains as a young lad by getting a train set. I remember my first train excursion behind the 765. I hope that more kids mot only embrace watching trains and modeling, but preserving and/or operating the real thing.

c8salmon@wmich.edu

Being 26 and in the same boat Dave is in, I think he hit the nail right on the head. One problem I have run into in the past is that many of the older generation in our community is either unwilling or unable to accept the fact that someone in Dave's or my age range might be interested in a railroad that disappeared long before we were born (heck, I'm a fan of the Pere Marquette, and its been gone since 1947). Hey, just because we didn't see Berkshires and Pacifics running on daily passenger and freight trains doesn't mean we can't or don't like them! On the other hand, many can't seem to understand that a GP30 or a U-Boat is just as unusual and historic to us as a Berkshire or Hudson might be to someone else.

I would caution about marketing everything to our age group, however. While we might have chased ALCO's, U-Boats and F-Units, there are still a fair number of peope out there who chased steam, or at least remember it. BALANCE is they key. The other aspect is that you don't really want to pander to our generation either. From what I have seen, we hate that as much as being ignored!

The other aspect that isn't covered is that we, as museums with a railroad focus, need to focus more of our energy into bringing more than just our own kind into our museums. We spend so much time worrying whether we have the correct paint scheme or the right set of brake-rigging that we often turn-off completely those around us who, frankly, think we are a bunch of freaks. The only way we can and should grow is to bring in people who are concerned as much about, say, presentation of the material to a general audience as the correct number on the car.

A great start to this would be the joint ARM and TRAIN conventions coming up in November at Spencer Shops. To me, this is the type of thing that needs to be raised among the whole community, where discussion can truly bring about some well-organized change.

T.J. Gaffney
Curator of Collections
Port Huron Museum


Port Huron Museum
peremarquette@hotmail.com

Man, is it great to hear that I'm not the only one in our generation not going for the high-priced lawyer's or internet start-up position. Chris, your attitude, well, frankly, ROCKS. I did the corporate America thing for two years, because although I love history and museum-related work, I never saw it as a paying venture: I took the old road which said "if it doesn't pay, the job is worthless." Well, I hated it. So when the opportunity for my position here came along, I jumped at it. And you know what? I've never been happier. WISE is the man who does with less but loves his work then the man who has everything and hates to work each day. I'm a firm believer that one of the keys to a long-life is loving what you do: that's why I love talking to railroad retiree's; the majority of them loved their work, even if it was the back-breaking kind. The long and the short of it? It won't be easy, but stick with what you love. You'll be far better for it.

HMMM....Do I see a movement starting?

O.K., I'm off my soapbox. Who's next?

TJG



Port Huron Museum
peremarquette@hotmail.com

First, let me say that I do find it very interesting, and not a little troubling that this subject has come up in at least 3 different unrelated hobby boards/discussion groups almost simultaneously. I also found it extremely troubling that one poster (on another forum) actually came out with (paraphrased)"Forget about the kids and teens, we need to concentrate on recruiting 30-40 year olds to our hobby because they're more mature, and actually have the money to really get involved..."
Sorry, I disagree with that notion, if you wait that long, you'll never get them. The seed needs planted when they're tots and preeteens, and nurtured by adults who can and will take the time to answer "stupid" or seeming inpertinant questions. OTOH: We also have to let the kids take things at their own speed...trying to force an interest will turn them off far more surely than if we hadn't tried at all.
My daughter (age 7) likes trains okay, she likes steam tractors better, because she gets to ride on those more often (Much of my interest in RRs came through the steam connection too.). But she (currently) has this thing for heavy construction machinery. We've spent quite a few hours on hills overlooking strip mines, and road projects...Was it wasted? Nah, I spent it with her, and just maybe she'll eventually decide that trains are more fun than draglines and dumptrucks. Maybe not (she may even give it all up for makeup and boys like her older sister did), but I'll give her oportunities, and let her decide on her own...the same thing goes for her baby sister as well.

Off the soapbox now, and goin back to "the house of women" :)