This is a last ditch call out to anyone who can help us save this Grand Trunk-heritage car. To those that do not know, this car is currently located on the Reading & Northern RR (former Blue Mtn. & Reading) at Leesport, PA., and though owned by the Reading Company Technical & Historical Society, has been deemed surplus due to its lack of Reading heritage. Unfortunately, I and Rick Bates from R.C. & T.H.S. have exhausted, to our knowledge, all remaining possibilities in Michigan. Thanks to Joe Bulone of Capac Historical Museum, Aarne Frobom at SRI, and Charlie Whipp of Lapeer, Michigan, for their efforts in trying to find a home for the car.

If a place is not found to preserve the car, it will go to the town of Pottsville, Pennsylvania, who will most likely gut its fairly original interior for use as a visitors center. Below is the car's history, and yes, Rick in particular has posted several times in the past six months on RYPN and other websites trying to find a group to save it.

Below is the baggage car's history, as well as a list of known preserved passenger equipment from the Grand Trunk:

Built as: GTR #789. Part of order Classification #: BA-61-D/ BE-61-D. Purchased through Blair Company Trust Series C. Part of GTR car series #788- #795 delivered by Osgood-Bradley in April, 1914 (1914 build year then). Originally built as a wood-sided baggage, with steel fish-belly underframe, blind-ends, and four-wheel trucks, and two doors per side. Renumbered to GTW #8526 in June of 1925; Steel-plated in October of 1929; Trucks were roller-bearing equipped in May of 1957; Retired and sold to F.J. Steck, Reese, Michigan, September of 1970, and operated on his Reeese Central. Unknown from there, other than I know most of Mr. Stecks equipment was sold around 1984 at public auction, so I'm guessing this was sold at same time.

I have already checked, and none of her sisters survive. Other GTR/ GTW passenger equipment that survives is the following:

GTR #885 Coach/ EJ&S #2 Combine: Built by Osgood Bradley in 1864 as coach, remodeled to Combine in 1889 at Block I shops. Now at Mid-Continent in North Freedom, Wisconsin.

C&GT #1842 Coach/ GTW #3244 Combine/GTW #7365 Combine: Original build date unknown, 1873 and 1889 both are listed in differing records. Rebuilt in 1891 at Block I shops as a combine. Last used in 1955 on Muskegon-GR mixed train, was sold to Howard Baker of Baker Furniture in 1956, then sold to Mack Lowry of Akron, ohio, in 1962; then to Quaker Square complex of Akron, 1976. Given to Port Huron Museum in 2000, restored in 2003-- on display in Port Huron, Michigan.

GTW Baggage #9084: History unknown, other than sold in October of 1970. In terms of build date currently unknown, checking soon. Now at Cuyhoga Valley Scenic in Akron, Ohio.

GTW Diner #899 "The Silver Lake": Built in 1954 by Pullman-Standard as a buffet-parlor for the Grand Trunk Western Railroad. Now in Saginaw, michigan, owned by Bluewater Chapter NRHS

GTW Coach-Buffet #4885: Now Concession car BMCX 4885 was built in 1953 by Pullman-Standard as a coach-buffet for the Grand Trunk Western Railroad. Now in Saginaw, michigan, owned by Bluewater Chapter NRHS

GTW Steel Coach #5316 (Pullman, 1912), ex-parlor car "Melanie" at IRM, Union, Illinois.

GTW Steel Coach #5327, (Pullman, 1910), Lake Superior Railway Museum at Duluth, MN.

GTW Steel Baggage #8812- (Build date Unknown) Durand, Michigan.

There are also two unpreserved GTW coaches in Oden, michigan, both in the #5300 series, under unknown ownership, and highly vandalized.

To my knowledge, this is the extent of existing GT Passenger equipment that is preserved. Hope this helps. By the way, most of this knowledge came from the book: "Canadian National Railways Passenger Equipment, 1867-1992."

A picture of the car is below. Any help appreciated.



Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Tioga Central in north-central Pennsylvania, owns a former GT pay car, that it uses for offices, I think.

JR

> To my knowledge, this is the extent of
> existing GT Passenger equipment that is
> preserved.


Tioga Central Equipment

Here's a recent photo (within the last couple of years).

http://www.readingrailroad.org

Another photo.

http://www.readingrailroad.org

. Other GTR/ GTW passenger
> equipment that survives is the following:

> GTR #885 Coach/ EJ&S #2 Combine: Built
> by Osgood Bradley in 1864 as coach,
> remodeled to Combine in 1889 at Block I
> shops. Now at Mid-Continent in North
> Freedom, Wisconsin.

> C&GT #1842 Coach/ GTW #3244 Combine/GTW
> #7365 Combine: Original build date unknown,
> 1873 and 1889 both are listed in differing
> records. Rebuilt in 1891 at Block I shops as
> a combine. Last used in 1955 on Muskegon-GR
> mixed train, was sold to Howard Baker of
> Baker Furniture in 1956, then sold to Mack
> Lowry of Akron, ohio, in 1962; then to
> Quaker Square complex of Akron, 1976. Given
> to Port Huron Museum in 2000, restored in
> 2003-- on display in Port Huron, Michigan.

> GTW Baggage #9084: History unknown, other
> than sold in October of 1970. In terms of
> build date currently unknown, checking soon.
> Now at Cuyhoga Valley Scenic in Akron, Ohio.

> GTW Diner #899 "The Silver Lake":
> Built in 1954 by Pullman-Standard as a
> buffet-parlor for the Grand Trunk Western
> Railroad. Now in Saginaw, michigan, owned by
> Bluewater Chapter NRHS

> GTW Coach-Buffet #4885: Now Concession car
> BMCX 4885 was built in 1953 by
> Pullman-Standard as a coach-buffet for the
> Grand Trunk Western Railroad. Now in
> Saginaw, michigan, owned by Bluewater
> Chapter NRHS

> GTW Steel Coach #5316 (Pullman, 1912),
> ex-parlor car "Melanie" at IRM,
> Union, Illinois.

> GTW Steel Coach #5327, (Pullman, 1910), Lake
> Superior Railway Museum at Duluth, MN.

I think this car is somewhere else, I asked Tim Shandel about it when I saw him at Gaitherburg two weeks ago, and I think he said they do not have it any more.

> GTW Steel Baggage #8812- (Build date
> Unknown) Durand, Michigan.

> There are also two unpreserved GTW coaches
> in Oden, michigan, both in the #5300 series,
> under unknown ownership, and highly
> vandalized.

Also, the interior of GTW RPO that used to be with PM 1225 (for all the times I slept in it I cannot remember the number right now) is in the mockup of the Southern RPO in the Old Post Office museum across the street from Washington Union Station. I also believe that a sister RPO is in Union IL from the former Bob Johnson collection.

Steve Zuiderveen

SZuidervee@aol.com

Are those roller bearings I see? What would it take to interchange this car in freight for shipment?

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Are those roller bearings I see? What would
> it take to interchange this car in freight
> for shipment?

In addition to the above question, what do they want for it?

tstuy-nospam@eldcps.org

> In addition to the above question, what do
> they want for it?

This is where it gets interesting.

Yes, it is rolling bearing equipped, but (and yes, I am not joking) these are wood-beam trucks, which I am guessing negates its interchange capabilities. According to what documentation I have, GTW roller-bearing equipped the ORIGINAL wheelsets in August of 1955, and she was used by them through 1970, when Fred Steck bought her.

I understand the asking price is $10,000 for the car, but that it is negotiable. I really hate to speak much more on behalf of RCT&HS or Rick Bates, as I myself am a thrid party here trying to save a GT car. Current location I understand is in Leesport, PA.

TJ

TJ



Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

> This is where it gets interesting.

> Yes, it is rolling bearing equipped, but
> (and yes, I am not joking) these are
> wood-beam trucks, which I am guessing
> negates its interchange capabilities.
> According to what documentation I have, GTW
> roller-bearing equipped the ORIGINAL
> wheelsets in August of 1955, and she was
> used by them through 1970, when Fred Steck
> bought her.

> I understand the asking price is $10,000 for
> the car, but that it is negotiable. I really
> hate to speak much more on behalf of
> RCT&HS or Rick Bates, as I myself am a
> thrid party here trying to save a GT car.
> Current location I understand is in
> Leesport, PA.

> TJ

> TJ

How about your Canadian neighbors? This is apparently one in a 15 car series, the second lot which was produced in 1914 for GTR. The first lot of 15 cars is represented by a photo of a 400 series, and this lot is represented by car #800, which can be viewed in the new book by Richard McQuaid, "From Wood to Steel, Classic Canadian Railway Passenger Cars from 1860 to 1920" available from Martin Grove Press, Toronto. Their number series meshes neatly with yours, 788-795 and 795 - 802 to make up a 15-car order. In the Pullman Library at the Illinois Railway Museum we may have many of the original construction drawings (and a few photos) of this car series. Contact me off net for details. Let's save that car!
Ted Anderson, IRM Pullman Library Curator

tedander@core.com

> Are those roller bearings I see?
> What would it take to interchange this car
> in freight
> for shipment?

> dave

A REALLY BIG WIN at Vegas, or the Powerball:

Buy ALL of NS stock, take over the management of the RR.

Otherwise- forget about moving it on its own wheels.

Load it on a TTX flatcar, and maybe...

If you want to save alot of banging your head against the wall, use a low-boy truck.

Not to be a wet blanket, but just so anybody seriously thinking about this car, knows what to expect. It's really tough to move "old" passenger cars on NS. They only want to deal with modern wheels, bearings, and brake equipment.

We care about the preservation of this car, and will work with any seriously interested group. The car is in pretty good shape. We bought it in '85, to use as a concession car on our 2102 trips, but the car was banned from the trips on Conrail.

We ran the car on our debut of GP-30 #5513 trips in Nov. '85 on the BM&R.
I remember the car rode very well, and made alot of neat "wooden car noises".

Since then, it has mostly been a stationary car for concessions / museum displays at our Leesport site. (we have not tried any "main-line" trips with our own equipment since '86)
If you bought anything from us at Leesport since '88, it was in this car !

Come on, GTW guys. . . somebody buy this car. We really could use the cash.

Steve Gilbert
1st V P
RCT&HS

As much as bashing NS is a popular sport these days, I must step in and defend them. In the last 2 years I have moved our 1925 Pullman diner EL 741 over NS twice. The first time from Holidaysburg, PA to the DL interchange at Slateford Junction, the second time from Slateford Jct. to Kansas City. NS honored our "rear of train only" request each time. Their people inspected it each time and we only had minor requests from them for each move (a stencil request and removal of a broken window). The car moved with a 90 mph(!) speed restricition. At major yards when idle the car was spotted near towers or yard offices for safe keeping. No damage was done on either move and I found the rates we were quoted to be reasonable. Yes our car has roller bearings but it does have an ancient UC brake system. I was pleased with the service we got - I was even able to trace the car online with their tracking system.

I would not ask NS to run an excursion for us, but as a customer I have been pleased to deal with NS.

Tim Stuy
Secretary
ELDCPS

Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society
tstuy-nospam@eldcps.org

I'm Working on it Steve---just give me a chance!

TJ

Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

> As much as bashing NS is a popular sport

> I would not ask NS to run an excursion for
> us, but as a customer I have been pleased to
> deal with NS.

> Tim Stuy
> Secretary
> ELDCPS

I was not intending to "bash" NS on this. It's a simple fact that they don't want to move "old" cars on their own wheels. They will not take the risk of delaying their freight trains, which pay the bills.

It just makes it tough for our kind of groups to get something moved.

You have certainly had better luck getting a passenger car moved than we have.

I would like to read a post on this subject from someone in authority at NS.

Underline "in authority".