I thought the Georges Creek RR has a number of washouts that need to be addressed, before any equipment runs? It does feel like they are over extending themselves.

There was a comment made earlier about train size and that 734 (and, eventually, 202) will not be able to pull a long train. That subject was addressed maybe 50 years ago by the Clinchfield. They added an MU control box to 4-6-0 number 1, and were able to pull much larger trains. The idea same could work at WMSR. And it could save an engine crew.

The steam engine supplies the appropriate smoke, steam, bell and whistle; while the diesel makes up any deficit in tractive effort. And other than while riding in an open car, the general public will not see much difference. Remember that these days the general public is your market. A train is a train is a train.

Once at Frostburg, the steam locomotive is uncoupled from the diesel helper, turned on the turntable, and run around the train. The brakes on the diesel get 'boxcarred'. The steam engine then takes the train downgrade to Cumberland by itself.

To go a step farther, I know that 734, and I would imagine 1309, have some form of 26-L brake, 26-NL or 26-FNL, which offer pressure maintaining. But wouldn't it be nice to have dynamic brakes? It would save on wheel wear and brake shoes.

Again, there is a solution from years ago. The original Western Maryland equipped their BL-2 units with additional controls for leading DB equipped trailing units. This could be incorporated into the MU control box. It would require a few toggle switches, pilot lights and an industrial rheostat.

Both locomotives would have to be turned individually at Frostburg, of course. The turntable just isn't long enough. With the current long layover, there is plenty of time. And wouldn't it be nice to see one or both of the GP-30s in Fireball?

Addressing another comment, sometimes you have to take advantage of an opportunity when it presents itself, because the proverbial tomorrow may be too late. Agreed, the current WMSR management has a lot on it's plate.

But the comments about 1309 and it's being out of service for over a year are a bit harsh. That locomotive was not the 'was running when stored, barn-find' that the previous management thought it was. Also, as has been stated earlier and on other venues, 734 was 'run hard and put away wet', again by the previous regime. Just give these guys a chance.

Thank you EDM. No dog in this fight. Your reminders to some of the critics is well deserved. Thought this was kind of "were all in this together" thing instead of what some portray? Regards, John.

Oh, yeah, I had to explain that modernish looking box in Clinchfield #1 to my kid last time I was a BOMX, as it looked out of place.
"you mean they could operate something built after you were born, from the cab"?
I don't see why they couldn't use that .. 40+ year old technology with one of the GP30s, for the trip up.
There's no reason that a crew couldn't then operate it back down the hill later, so at least the trip back looks period. Maybe leave a consist, so there is a early 70s photo freight to chase, with people able to ride back down in the cabooose.

Important question; why does the engine need to be capable of pulling the biggest train they can possibly run to Frostburg?

These days the WMSR throughout the year runs shorter, cheaper trains aimed at locals. Their Ice Cream, Spring Fling, Pumpkin Patch, dinner train, and murder mystery consists all consist of 6 cars or less, perfectly within the capabilities of 202, and some of them run at the exact same time as their headlining "Frostburg Flyer". Even then they've had plenty of Frostburg Flyers behind the mallet during some lulls that were in that 6 car realm. Now add in the George's Creek they're working on, and if they ever want to run steam there, well it sounds like they need 3 engines in the long run. Certainly doesn't hurt anyone to look at where you want to be 5, 10, 15 years from now, and start making moves towards getting there.

Not only that, seems like the city are the ones who are pushing to make this happen. All the language I hear/see is them saying they're revisiting an old proposal from the WMSR to have the engine, that when the city officials were thinking about what to do with it sending it off to the most local tourist railroad that already has experience with steam was the best option in their minds. On the side of the railroad, why would you turn down someone offering to give you a historic locomotive to the line you operate? Especially if you're a railroad that's spent the last couple years adding to your roster.

All I'm saying is this seems like a win-win all around; the WMSR gets more motive power for their ever increasing number of trains, rail historians get to see the sole surviving mainline steam engine from a fallen flag on the route it was specifically built for, Hagerstown gets to wash their hands of a financial burden they were never really intended to take on, the people of Hagerstown apparently get discounts to go experience the living breathing history of railroading, and the average railfan gets another engine to photograph and oogle at.

I just don't see a downside here, even in the unlikely case this becomes another can of worms that takes 7+ years to see through.

Hi
When my friend and I rode behind the WMSR # 1309 in 2022, there was a post on page 1 stating that once the train arrived at Frostburg, MD. The entire train would be pulled back to Cumberland by diesel, since the turntable is in no longer use by the railroad.
The turntable in Frostburg, is still there, but the reason why the turntable is not in use,, is because of the railbikes I hope I am using the correct name here,, are blocking use of the run around track.. There fore the diesel is tried on to the train,, leaving Cumberland, to pull the train back from Frostburg... Pat.

I’m afraid I’m going to upset those who want every steam locomotive in existence to be restored and run on the main line. I have mixed feelings about 202 leaving Hagerstown. On the one hand, there is an undeniable excitement at the prospect of seeing an actual Western Maryland locomotive under steam, on former WM trackage no less. On the other hand, it has a good, well-protected home at the City Park Railroad Museum. The locomotive itself is a time capsule, having been rebuilt by WM shortly before it was donated in 1953. In fact, it is in such good shape that in the 1980s it was fired up in the park while in the ownership of John Long (it was a static steam test only – I’m told that it didn’t move).

Frankly, I don’t consider 202 to be an engine that needs rescue, although the city of Hagerstown would probably disagree. It certainly needs cosmetic work, but the fact remains that it is fenced and covered – a luxury many other park engines don’t have. It’s also true that the locomotive hasn’t been particularly well cared for over the past two decades, and its current appearance reflects that. I haven’t seen Hagerstown’s plans for it, but they must be elaborate to command such a hefty price tag. Still, I’m surprised that $633,000 isn’t enough to stabilize and perform a decent cosmetic restoration. I believe a mix of paid contractors and volunteers with that amount of funding could have the locomotive looking like a showpiece in three years or less. Just take a look at what was accomplished in Mason City, Iowa, with M&StL 457, for far, far less. That locomotive went from a total basket case to the pride of the community in a relatively short time.

I have no doubt that if the Western Maryland Scenic were to acquire 202, they would put it back into running condition and it would be a big draw. But what happens after that? The line to Frostburg is a demanding stretch of railroad that beats the heck out of motive power - just look at the condition that 734 is in today after decades of climbing the grade. How do we prevent the same thing from happening to 202? What about long-term upkeep many years from now after its running days are over? How many locomotives have been restored, operated until they needed major repairs, then set aside and allowed to deteriorate to a condition far worse than they were before being restored? I would hate to see this happen to 202.

I’m sure that the Western Maryland Scenic is excited to have a real WM locomotive on its rails, but truth be told, if they really want another steam locomotive in operation rebuilding 734 would be a wiser investment rather than taking the only surviving Western Maryland mainline steam locomotive and making it run again. No. 734 isn’t a one-of-a-kind machine like 202 and can be upgraded and modified without fear of damaging whatever historic fabric is left (if you want authentic, IRM has preserved sister engine LS&I 35).

If Hagerstown does decide to send the locomotive to WMS, my hope is that there is proper funding and solid plans for its future – five, ten, fifteen, and even fifty years from now.

Jeff Terry

That's incorrect. The turntable isn't being used by #1309 because the track towards the turntable is, in as simplest terms as I can make, at too sharp of an angle and height change for the locomotive to safely get onto the turntable and off of the turntable at Frostburg. The diesels use the turntable with no problem on every other train that they run. As far as I know, there's no current plans to alter the tracks at Frostburg to allow #1309 to run solo up the hill and lead back.

If (key word, IF) the WMSR were to somehow convince Hagerstown to let them restore the locomotive, what are the chances that it runs on the Georges Creek division?

On January 15, 2024 there was this news story from Railfan & Railroad:

WMSR Leases Georges Creek Line With Hopes to Run Passenger, Freight Trains
https://railfan.com/wmsr-leases-georges ... ht-trains/

Excerpt:
The WMSR also said it hopes to establish a tourist train service on the route, as early as this year.

I visited the Georges Creek line in April and again today and found no indication of anything having been done to restore the line. The weeds, brush, briars, vines and trees are very thick on much of the route. Three derelict locomotives and a rust-covered bay window caboose remain just south of Barton, MD, where the previous operator left them. There are places where, assuming the trees and bushes were cleared away, even a speeder could not pass due to the poor condition of the track. There are also many places on the northern half of the line where grade crossings were paved over long ago.

So, to answer your question, it will be a very long time before anything runs on that line.

Years ago when I was 1522's CMO, I received a letter from someone who was involved with a group attempting to restore 202. Would have been easier then.
This individual was asking a lot of questions about lighting an oil burner off and firing one.

In no way is pointing out reality a harsh sentiment; it is necessity to keep perspective. Too much surgery kills the patient. Good business practice is having the depth to know when to exercise restraint.

Jeff

Hi
If the city of Hagerstown does not want the locomotive, then (IF) the WMSR is willing to take on the project,,at there expense,, which will include to move the locomotive out of the park and hopefully put the locomotive under cover,,until they can find the money to restore the locomotive back to operating condition I am all for it..

But on the another hand,,the WMSR already has there hands full ( Just getting the 1309 back under steam ) and the Consolidation needs a complete restoration for her to steam again..
I would like to see the management just get the 1309 back in Steam,, before they venture into another Steam project,, that will take years to complete,, either the 734,, or the 202..

Steam on the railroad does attract more people to ride the railroad,, I don't know if riding behind diesels does the same,, only the management of railroad has the answers on this question..

Lets not put Peter behind Paul,, get the 1309 back under steam then make a decision on either on 734 or WM 202 or what engine will be the bread and butter for the railroad.. and also be a back up for the 1309..

As for the running the WM 202 on George's Creek railroad,,repairs have not started on the railroad itself,, such as fixing road bed, washouts, etc etc... according to what I have read on the posts,,of Railway news Preservation... The WM has a long way to go,, before they can run any motive power on George's Creek,,, just go to ( youtube) website,, and you can see for yourself.... Pat

So does anyone know if WMSR is still pursuing 202? Given their announcement of moving forward with 734’s restoration, I’m assuming they’ve washed their hands with trying to get 202.

It’s a shame really that the locals are spreading blatantly false information. My biggest gripe is with the idiot (for lack of a better term) running the Save 202 FaceBook page. They’ve made ridiculous claims that WMSR scrapped steamers that used to run there and they claim they can’t even keep 1309 running, which clearly shows they don’t know the situation or how steam locomotive maintenance works. No one cared about 202 until someone wanted to take it away, then suddenly no one wants it gone. They’ll slap paint and leave it to rust another 50 years.

That’s why I proposed in a separate thread that WMSR offer to cosmetically restore 734 and offer it in trade to Hagerstown for 202. This could thwart the “Save the 202” crowd from influencing the Hagerstown city council to reject the sale to WMSR.

Mike Martino