Perhaps cold feet or gloomy attitudes are what is really keeping help from reaching the 470.I visited this engine along with Richard Glueck one day,and came away feeling down right sad.Someone needs to take care of this engine, but who? Right now it's the City of Watervilles responsibility,but things are tough in Maine right now and I can't see them investing in more than paint and bondo.
I'd suggest forming a new group dedicated to fixing up this great locomotive.Then approach the city and ask for permission to work on her.Start off with a good inspection and then make a realistic goal for at least a good clean up and maybe some cover and protection.
Perhaps 470 could steam again? I'm not sure but an optomistic and sensible view of her would help the situation.
How about it? Does anybody want to try taking this further?

Brian

btamper@hotmail.com

> I'd suggest forming a new group dedicated to
> fixing up this great locomotive.Then
> approach the city and ask for permission to
> work on her. Start off with a good inspection
> and then make a realistic goal for at least
> a good clean up and maybe some cover and
> protection. Does anybody want to try
> taking this further?
> Brian

Brian, I think you are right about the doom and gloom here. I can imagine how the last group to give her some TLC must have felt, seeing their efforts blemished in such short order.

I live much further away than you but I am willing to help with a monetary contribution should some sort of "friends of" group get organized.

What kind of money is she worth, anyone care to venture a guess of her value on the open market?




SJHussar@aol.com

Does the 470 Railroad Club have anything to do with MEC 470? Or is it just a catchy name or a coincidence?

The last time I saw the engine was more than 10 years ago and almost every summer before that. It was in pretty sorry shape then.

Why were the headlight and bell along with other items left on it to be vandalized or stolen?

A good home nearby for it could have been Cole's Transportation Musuem in Bangor (maybe that idea was rejected long ago). They already have a BL-2 and a short train inside. Balast and other debris can be removed form journal boxes and made fit to roll a dozen yards at a time if it means being preserved correctly for all time. A complete rebuild of the running gear is not required for such a move.

IMO one day the city of Waterville will see it as a liability (if not already) when the kid of a high profile person falls off of it and is paralyzed for the rest of thier life and in turn will dealt with it to make it not a liability. That could mean fenced in, or cut up if not removed in 48 hours.

I know these statements will create a firestorm but I think a dose of reality is needed.

The 470 Club is a big organization. They already own the MEC 501 that sits up at North Conway, New Hampshire.

Unfortunatly like a lot of organizations talking about doing something and actually doing it are two diffrent things.

This is not a comdenation, the 470 is a fine organization, as are many, it just does not seem to have the drive to perform the "hands-on" thats needed. Thats not to say they do nothing, they have well attended meetings and organize trips etc.

I experinced this during my involvement with the 470's efforts to get the MEC 501 back into service.

While I was turning volunteers away while heading-up the work to stabilize the EL&WB locomotives in the Allagash (we had a work party limit of 12)on the 501, which is much, much more accesible, we had all we could do to get 2 people together to work a day.

I spent many weekends stuffed in that firebox grinding and cutting flues. Needless say the lack of participation got very discouraging.

Again, talking the talk is diffrent than doing it. When I hear talk about saving this locomotive or that locomotive I wonder if those offering up that advise would truly be on the ground doing the work or recognize the huge effort involved.

Would they be willing to step forward and assume the primary leadership role? (Projects succeded or fail on the merits or failings of thier leaders)

As such, would they be willing to spend the many, many hours researching and developing and writing a plan that clearly spells out the who, what, when where and why?

Would they be willing to make the hours and hours of phone calls recruiting volunteers etc.?

Would they be willing to sacrifice vacation time to crawl around in mud, grease and rust along side the people expected to do the work?

Would they be willing to lead by example, make decisions and accept the responability if they prove wrong?

Would they be willing to deal with all the agencies and government buraucracies involved?

Would they be willing to spend the many hours aquiring the required equipment and materials?

Would they be willing to risk hurting someones pride or feelings to make sure the tasks get done correctly?

Would they themselves be truely willing to commit and sacrifice to work on this project in what ever capacity is required?

Simply and bluntly put there seems to be a lot more talkers than doer's and as we have seen, the doer's do while the talkers talk. Talk simply vanishes while what the doer's do remains for a long time to come.



tchjjjj@aol.com

> Does the 470 Railroad Club have anything to
> do with MEC 470? Or is it just a catchy name
> or a coincidence?

The 470 Club was formed by several fans who rode with her on her last run in 1954.



470 Club History
SJHussar@aol.com

Hi guys,

Maybe we should set up a Yahoo List to "what if" the possibilities of saving #470. I have a couple of ideas that I think are realistic, and none include fire or water. ;-)

Moving her is the cost that would dominate any effort, but there are some preservation friendly shortlines in Maine that might be the perfect home for her even as a static display.

One hint... a move would require Money & Energy (M&E... hmmm...). Wouldn't she look great in Rockland?

Another... Bondo & Move Later... (B&ML... hmmm...) she would be a real gem in Unity...

Seriously, to coordinate, we need a leader on the ground in ME.

Ideas?

Rob

rdavis@rypn.org

OK, I finally couldn't resist jumping in on this one.....

Is the City of Waterville willing to let the locomotive go? That's the first item on the agenda, guys. It is owned by them, and I would be surprised if they would allow 470 to be easily given away. Yes, the City does nothing to keep 470 up, it's a potential liability to them, etc., but I suspect there is a certain amount of "ownership emotion" involved when "outsiders" show up to take their engine away.

Show up with a real plan for 470, a real detailed plan for moving, restoring (at least cosmetically), conserving (under a roof of some sort), and properly interpreting the locomotive, such plan also showing where the funding will come from, and a group might have a chance to save the poor old girl. The ducks have to be gotten in a row before the City is likely to listen to any removal scheme.

Oh, and let's not forget the "local" railroad's attitude toward historic railroading. Better plan for disassembly on site, and trucking the sections out, especially based on what shape the journals must be in.

And, I think Mr. Harper and his message is as right-on-target as anything ever posted on RyPN. Too many people talk big about "saving" this or that, but are nowhere to be seen when time comes to write a check, pick up a tool, or supply a pair of hands. If the railway preservation "movement" had half as much funding as it has hot air, we would all be very well-off indeed.

Realistically (but not cynically),

Howard Pincus
Railroad Museum of New England
(which has a few MEC items, by the way)

hpincus@mindspring.com

Too many people talk big about
> "saving" this or that, but are
> nowhere to be seen when time comes to write
> a check, pick up a tool, or supply a pair of
> hands.

As one of my favorite preachers says:

What we need here is a little less wishbone and a lot more backbone!



shawsinoly@aol.com

Thank you,

In all fairness the 470 Club was formed as a "Railfan" group, Not a nuts and bolts preservation group dedicated to preserving and interpreting artifacts etc.

Its a diffrence worth noting, especially if you become involved with an organization or as a member or non-member seeking thier support for a proposed project.


tchjjjj@aol.com

Wouldn't she
> look great in Rockland?

> she would be a real
> gem in Unity...

> Seriously, to coordinate, we need a leader
> on the ground in ME.

> Ideas?

> Rob

I lived in Bath for a couple years and it seems to me that Waterville is a bit off the beaten path in terms of the main population of Maine which is located on the coast. I would think the communities of Freeport and Bath, where there are existing stations, are more touristy and apt to have the community support that may support the preservation effort and deter vandalism. Maybe corporate sponsorship like LL Bean or even Bath Iron Works. The Bath station is just outside the fence of the shipyard and that may be a huge potential source of volunteer labor. That workforce loves working on machines and they don't have to be Navy destroyers. Again, the move would be the big expense. Maybe the city of Bath would be amenable to approaching the city of Waterville...if the engine was visible from Route 1 by the Bath station maybe they would see it as an additional way to attract tourists that are heading through on the way up the coast.

> I know these statements will create a
> firestorm but I think a dose of reality is
> needed.

> Simply and bluntly put there seems to be a
> lot more talkers than doer's and as we have
> seen, the doer's do while the talkers talk.
> Talk simply vanishes while what the doer's
> do remains for a long time to come.

That is why every volunteer organization needs to constantly recruit new members. In the end only a small percentage will be there for the work. Many people want to be supportive, but do not have the time, money, physical ability, etc. to do the nuts and bolts stuff. And yes some are just big talkers.
mw

p_michael_warren@yahoo.com

A couple of years ago, I was told that there had been a shelter designed for the 470, but there was too much small town fighting going on to even get a simple wooden shelter built.

The City Council wanted a fancy "pavillion" and they don't even want to spend the money on lumber to build something simple.

Also the third had report is that the 470 club which is named after an excursion behind the engine is not interested.

The one positive thing that I have heard is that the Train show peoople in Springfield, who make grants to preservation groups all over New England would be willing to hear about a projrct.

Get a cover over her and some paint on her and that is about all you can do in s small town in an out of the way part of Maine.

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Near the bridge that leads across the river to Winslow is a gasoline Lombard Log Hauler which was build nearby. It is under cover and fenced in and kept nice looking. The last time I saw it, there was no vandalism, likely due to the proximity to a couple busy roads.

Anybody know who sprung for that enclosure, was is the town or private money?

Well, yes!

That's why the key thing is someone on the ground in ME. You can do fine raising funds from afar, but the nutz-n-boltz ops needs someone close by willing to work on it.

Of course, you are right about seeing if the Waterville would let her go. I skipped that alternative in my rambling since they have dropped the ball in a big way.

Getting her out looks like the best idea.

Finding someone willing to lead the effort is the first step.

Rob

rdavis@rypn.org

> Anybody know who sprung for that enclosure,
> was is the town or private money?

Don't know, but here it is. Follow the link.


Waterville, ME sheltered Lombard
SJHussar@aol.com