The log hauler was aquired in 1975(?). It was moved from Churchill Lake up in the Allagash.

I remember it was sitting in the old tractor shed up there with 2 other Lombards as it had since it last operated in 1933. At the time, 1974, it was like the mechanics had taken a coffee break and not come back.

The following year we went back only to find that the tractors had been hauled out of the shed by the Maine Department of Conservation and the building burned along with all its contents.

This machine, and one other where aquired by the Town of Waterville. They then sat forgotten quite a few years until a young man volunteered to do a cosmetic restoration on one in return for the other. I beleive the town built the shelter. It may be sheltered but it still needs regular paint etc.

Like many park locomotives, I am sure the town was enthusiastic to place the 470 on display, but like many others the reality and expense of maintaining it have dampened that flame over the years. In addition those who where in political poweer at the time have gone and those who have replaced them may not have had or have the same interest.

Moving the locomotive to become a park engine in another town only invites the same fate as we see today. Initial enthusiasum may be great but it will dim no matter how accesible it is.

My 2 Cents? Find a museum within the State of Maine. (The Cole Museum comes to mind)give them a call see if they are interested. If they are then offer to approach the town on thier behalf. If they show interest then its time to form a group.

Should this locomotive stay in Maine. You bet. Maine is where its history is. To move it out of state would break that link. It would become just another locomotive that ran somewhere. Imagine trying to interput a Mnt. Washington Cog railway locomotive in Kansas! (Its an extreme example but it works)


tchjjjj@aol.com

> I lived in Bath for a couple years and it
> seems to me that Waterville is a bit off the
> beaten path in terms of the main population
> of Maine which is located on the coast. I
> would think the communities of Freeport and
> Bath, where there are existing stations, are
> more touristy and apt to have the community
> support that may support the preservation
> effort and deter vandalism. Maybe corporate
> sponsorship like LL Bean or even Bath Iron
> Works. The Bath station is just outside the
> fence of the shipyard and that may be a huge
> potential source of volunteer labor. That
> workforce loves working on machines and they
> don't have to be Navy destroyers. Again, the
> move would be the big expense. Maybe the
> city of Bath would be amenable to
> approaching the city of Waterville...if the
> engine was visible from Route 1 by the Bath
> station maybe they would see it as an
> additional way to attract tourists that are
> heading through on the way up the coast.

I have long felt that a Yankee railroad museum has been needed for some time. This proposal in Bath seems to have some merit, if the troops can be rallied. In my mind, the best volunteers are not Fans first and restorationists second, so there is no absolute need to rattle the cages at railfan meetings to make something happen. Go to the local rotary club etc. and get support from the community and philanthropic individuals. No surprise that the 470 Club dropped the ball on this one, the Central Electric Railfans Association lost preservation opportunities with a wooden North Shore car, Chicago and West Towns streetcar, and who knows what else (before other groups rose to the task).

> My 2 Cents? Find a museum within the State
> of Maine. (The Cole Museum comes to
> mind)give them a call see if they are
> interested.

I visited the Coles museum a few months ago. While there is a full train (BL2, boxcar, caboose) on display in the building, the building was built around the train. There is no rail access whatsoever into (or out of) the facility. So, either they would have to add-on to their building or construct a shelter just for the 470. There are active rail lines within .5 miles - the museum is down the street from Northern Maine Junction.

One thing that I did notice, however, is that Guliford participated a great deal in donating items for the Coles museum. This included the wood-frame boxcar, caboose, steam-era materials from one of their shops, and a large number of cobblestones that are on the floor. So getting Guliford to help in this task may not be out of the question.

Everything in the Coles museum was meticulously cosmetically restored. Unfortunately, the place does have a rather "static" feel, since the entire collection is stuffed and mounted. With the 470, I think that it would be in a good home, since running her again would be too much to ask. Unfortunately, I don't know where they would put her.

-Ed Lecuyer

Historical USGS Maps at maptech.com
elecuyer@maptech.com

> So, either they would have
> to add-on to their building or construct a
> shelter just for the 470.

I don't see why something like that couldn't happen. At the New England Air Museum in Windsor Locks, Connecticut this vintage B-29 was painstakingly restored by volunteers. When the restoration was nearing completion the museum broke ground to build this hangar-like building to display her in.

According to the story, a combination of visitor donations and a grant from the state were the main sources of funding.



NEAM ground breaking

SJHussar@aol.com

No Message

Even though 470 is currently being neglected,I believe it's because they (Watervilles citizens)just aren't aware of what they have.My feeling is that it belongs right where it is.However this doesn't mean that it can't go anywhere.I know that other steam groups have leased equipment from municipal owners and restored them to run again,all the while being owned by a city.
The spot that 470 sits on isn't really a bad one. It's just unprotected.
I'd vollenteer to speak to the city councel on 470s behalf but I want to be sure that there are others who will stick it out too.Heck,I'm not even a resident of Maine I'm from New Hampshire,but I care enough to try to stir things up.
Oh,and by the way I walk the walk too.I was up to my armpits in grease and hydraulic fluid working on track equipment today, along with cutting up trees that got blown down across the tracks by the wind.I feel like I got tarred and feathered!

Brian


btamper@hotmail.com

> I have long felt that a Yankee railroad
> museum has been needed for some time. This
> proposal in Bath seems to have some merit,
> if the troops can be rallied. In my mind,
> the best volunteers are not Fans first and
> restorationists second, so there is no
> absolute need to rattle the cages at railfan
> meetings to make something happen. Go to the
> local rotary club etc. and get support from
> the community and philanthropic individuals.
> No surprise that the 470 Club dropped the
> ball on this one, the Central Electric
> Railfans Association lost preservation
> opportunities with a wooden North Shore car,
> Chicago and West Towns streetcar, and who
> knows what else (before other groups rose to
> the task).
Maine Central # 470 does deverve a better fate too WHAT TOO WHERE SHE IS NOW,,,I do not think the CITY OF WATERVILLE,ME does not care about there history,,on this engine,,,once someone dose ..get hurt,,,then the engine is and eyesore,,,,simple thing just make it go away,,,(we ) the people from MAAINE did not care if it was the last STEAM LOCO to run it MAINE,,,,,,but today's people,,in grovment,,,and where are the people in Maine in WATERVILLE,,ME putting support about there HISTORY,,and this LOCOMOTIVE,,,I sais enough,,,AND I am from MASS may be I said too much....

cprh1b@concast.net

Brian:
I live in Bangor, and I'll be glad to go with you if you are serious about making a case to the Waterville City Council, or sitting in on an interview with the Mayor. We will need some statements like those posted above, and perhaps a few commitments in hand from companies willing to DONATE lumber, equipment, sheet metal, and construction supplies to house and restore the locomotive. Furthermore, a dedicated and guaranteed body of construction-savvy individuals must be recruited and sworn to show up and do this work. I am talking about inside the tender, inside the firebox, under the loco, etc., etc.
My suggestion would be to undertake rebuild and housing sometime in the late Spring or early Summer, then work like heck to complete it inside a time frame of two weeks; 1 week to construct the exterior housing and another to start the cosmetic work on the engine itself.
The building should include a LOCKED and volunteer STAFFED railroad museum, with room for other exhibits as well (like maybe another ex-Guilford Diesel).
This is do-able, but support and commitment are essential, otherwise we'll look like fools before the City Council, and further sink the loco's prospects.
RyPN readers, is this a commitment you will undertake? How badly do you want it? Let's hear from this body. It's crunch time, boys and girls.


glueck@maine.edu

Howard, I'll turn it back on you---

I would and WILL write a check to support such a move, but it can't be "pie-in-the sky", and as you eloquently put it, it needs to be well thought out and planned. I'm currently trying to find a home for former GTR #789, and have been willing to loan the money for the purchase from the Reading group if someone would come up with the moving costs and a home for it, but there still have been no takers. In turn, if a trade could be worked between an organization, say, with a piece of Reading equipment, I would take that money and put it towards the move of the car to that facility. Same goes with 470-- if a plan comes up, I will find a way to drive out there, present the plan to Waterville, and help both physically and financially (as much as I can) to get her moved to safety.

And guess what? I have two young kids, a mortgage, and I work for a non-profit, so you-all know I'm nuts, too. I'm a complete idiot though, and working for a non-profit, I know how hard it is to get MORE than one person to go in on a project like this. And, no, I can't afford to do it by myself. I gave to Friends of EBT for the first time this year: I WOULD have purchased excursion tickets for OC Steam/ Excursion trips the past three years, if I hadn't had the premature birth of my daughter. But NONE of us can support preservation of this nature just by ourselves; we need help.

TJG

> OK, I finally couldn't resist jumping in on
> this one.....

> Is the City of Waterville willing to let the
> locomotive go? That's the first item on the
> agenda, guys. It is owned by them, and I
> would be surprised if they would allow 470
> to be easily given away. Yes, the City does
> nothing to keep 470 up, it's a potential
> liability to them, etc., but I suspect there
> is a certain amount of "ownership
> emotion" involved when
> "outsiders" show up to take their
> engine away.

> Show up with a real plan for 470, a real
> detailed plan for moving, restoring (at
> least cosmetically), conserving (under a
> roof of some sort), and properly
> interpreting the locomotive, such plan also
> showing where the funding will come from,
> and a group might have a chance to save the
> poor old girl. The ducks have to be gotten
> in a row before the City is likely to listen
> to any removal scheme.

> Oh, and let's not forget the
> "local" railroad's attitude toward
> historic railroading. Better plan for
> disassembly on site, and trucking the
> sections out, especially based on what shape
> the journals must be in.

> And, I think Mr. Harper and his message is
> as right-on-target as anything ever posted
> on RyPN. Too many people talk big about
> "saving" this or that, but are
> nowhere to be seen when time comes to write
> a check, pick up a tool, or supply a pair of
> hands. If the railway preservation
> "movement" had half as much
> funding as it has hot air, we would all be
> very well-off indeed.

> Realistically (but not cynically),

> Howard Pincus
> Railroad Museum of New England
> (which has a few MEC items, by the way)


Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

TJ - the car would look great coupled to your combine.

Write lots of grants. Get a few. Make it happen locally. You are in a much better position to effect change and grow the organization you work for than the average civilian with a part time interest anywhere else.

I am aware this is the sort of thing that day to day drudgery and usual crises seem to crowd out of the picture, but that's why they invented delegation and door locks.

No shortage of us obsolete craftspeople, but very few effective fund raisers. I suggest you contact Elmer Lam at NCTHC and chat about how he has been so effective at Spencer Shops.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Dave- Thanks, I think it would look great there too. While I'm at it, some other things I think that we should do:

1.) Purchase and cosmetically restore one of the GTW 0-8-0's in Sterling, IL (none preserved in Michigan yet, either) and move it here

2.) Make and offer with Huckleberry/ Marty and split the Detroit trolleys between the two of us, thereby getting two Michigan communities with trolleys for the loss of one

3.) Purchase and move the #8526 to Port Huron or Capac, Michigan and restore.

4.) Save a certain GT wooden 77000-series cabooose constructed at the C&GT Fort Gratiot Car Shops that now sits in Croswell, Michigan, restore

5.) Finally get the D.B. Harrington correctly and cosmetically restored and displayed

6.) Save the carferry Pere Marquette #10 from the Frog Pond in Toldeo (read SCRAPPER), restore

7.) Make an offer to Jackson, Michigan for GTW 4-6-2 #5030 (I think the bag would look better behind that) and move her to Port Huron

8.) Purchase and move the ex-Huron Cement Great Lakes freighter Lewis G. Harriman from Purvis Marine and move her to Port Huron (would like nice behind the Bramble!)

9.) Get one of the two triple exapnsion engines taken out of the Chief Wawatam while I'm there and create a similar exhibit to the Manitowoc Marine Museum

10.) Purchase one of the four remaining Northern Motor Cars built in Port Huron between 1903-1908 and display

11.) Acquire the two GT 5300-series coaches now sitting in bad shape on the west side of Michigan (to put behind 5030 and that baggage car)

12.) Make an offer for one of Glen Monhardts ex-BAR BL2's currently in Green Bay, and cosmetically restore it as a C&O unit (used almost exclusively here in Michigan's Thumb)

13.) Get and restore a certain ex-Pere Marquette/ C&O Russell snow plow (SP-20) currently sitting in Traverse City

14.)Bring in Gary Landrio and Randy Gustafson from Stone Consulting, to help us buy the "Dunn Paper lead" from CNNA, so we have a place to run/ put all this stuff

15.) Purchase the former GTW/CNNA Port Huron Car Shops Complex for interpretative display/ restoration shop/ winter storage

16.) Restore the last remaining building from the 1829-era Fort Gratiot Military Outpost, move it onto the Fort Gratiot Lighthouse property, and negotiate with the Coast Guard for the entire station's transfer (wait a minute, were doing that....)

Seriously though, Dave, I've been wanting to bring you in on one of the above projects for two years now, and have yet to get that taken care of. Its funny, but if its Marine (except for the carferry) we've batted nearly 1000 as far as getting things we wanted preserved done. But then, that's more than just me talking. When it comes to rail preservation, its very often just me talking. As it is, I think I need to take care of what we have first, then get what we want later.

Oh, and we have been getting what few grants are out there---what do you think paid for the purchase/ restoration of that combine and the depot? I will take you up on the suggestion though---and I still have yet to figure out how to get you here to help us restore the D.B.

TJ

> TJ - the car would look great coupled to
> your combine.

> Write lots of grants. Get a few. Make it
> happen locally. You are in a much better
> position to effect change and grow the
> organization you work for than the average
> civilian with a part time interest anywhere
> else.

> I am aware this is the sort of thing that
> day to day drudgery and usual crises seem to
> crowd out of the picture, but that's why
> they invented delegation and door locks.

> No shortage of us obsolete craftspeople, but
> very few effective fund raisers. I suggest
> you contact Elmer Lam at NCTHC and chat
> about how he has been so effective at
> Spencer Shops.

> dave


Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Let's wait until summer. Maybe we can knock out half the items on your list.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Yeah, TJ. That's my bane right now. I have been directing a few checks here and there for projects that have leadership and goals that I respect, but I can't be the "man on the ground" right now. Wish I could, and I will get back to that sort of thing, but right now support and cheerleading is about all I can do.

Rob

> I would and WILL write a check to support
> such a move, but it can't be
> "pie-in-the sky", and as you
> eloquently put it, it needs to be well
> thought out and planned. I

Of course, there are a few appropriate places for indoor storage of #470 if she ever leaves Waterville. The MEC engine houses still stand at Rockland, ME and Bartlett, NH. Both would make excellent museum sites.

Just dreaming...

Rob

Probably it is the least romantic, provides the most rejection for the heaviest paperwork load, but is the most necessary part of preservation.

Do any of us on this list actually spend most of their time pursuing grants?

Can we as an industry generate a vital subculture to address this need?

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net