Considering the current state of society and culture today, I would opine that most of us would agree that it's pretty difficult to argue the wisdom of Greek philosophers.

If you believe that your musing here on a online railroad preservation forum will somehow supersede that which has been held in the highest regard for THOUSANDS of years, I seriously want to be your best friend. (*sarcasm*) I want to be at your right hand when you ultimately rule the world.

I am of the opinion that we can recognize the contributions made by flawed human beings without endorsing those flaws, be they Thomas Jefferson or Woodrow Wilson or anyone else. No need to condemn the dead for not meeting modern litmus tests, but I hope that we all evolve to become more enlightened through this life and into whatever lies beyond.

If memory serves, someone passing within the last month would qualify as a "modern" person, of whom could be fairly held to modern litmus tests.

And rest assured, I'm not just speaking ill of him because he's dead. I did plenty of that while I was alive. I'm just continuing my "braying" because the overall message deserves to be heard. If you all continue to put disrespectful and ignorant folk like Ross Rowland on the pedestal just because he was cordial in his presentation and he ran steam excursions almost thirty years ago, you are contributing to the issue of the lack of younger people in the preservation scene.

Speculate as you may of my age, education, or skill - it won't change the fact that people like Ross and his ardent supporters scare young people away from museums and operating groups.

I'm with you. We have an obligation to call out anyone, dead or alive, who spouts racist theory. (I know that you have other issues with that guy, but I suspect those issues stem from the same character defects). The stuff he said in that post I haven't heard for around forty years, but it wasn't acceptable then, either. I used to call out my older relatives, born around WWI, for the same sort of racist tropes at family dinners back then. And guess what- they stopped. People don't come up with that crap on their own, they learn it from their family and neighbors who also consider it to be common sense, but also from so-called leaders who spout it. (My great aunt was the personal secretary to R.G. Le Tourneau, the founder of the company in Peoria IL that built mine trucks, now Komatsu, even though her family were impoverished former coal miners, and she brought some of his vile eugenic theories to family dinners even after she continued in the same role for Wabco when it owned the plant). But, if they are decent people who just were taught racist ideas from childhood, they stop repeating it when its basic repugnance is pointed out to them- back then, sometimes for the first time in their lives. (If not, they need to be continuously called out). The reason we do things is to a large extent because other people are doing the same things, and in the absence of moral people calling out racism it continues to perpetuate. And so you have my commendation.

Yeah, that'll bring young people into preservation - make them so scared to speak their minds for fear of disagreeing with you.

My way and my thoughts or I'll destroy your character on the internet and ruin your life.

And I thought the old timers who treated museum collections like their personal Lionel collections were bad.

Cancel culture at its finest, folks. It sure is making this country a wonderful place, isn't it?

Would you really want a volunteer to speculate casually as to whether "the blacks are able to self-govern" with guests? Or to do so online while identifying themselves as a volunteer at your entity? Or would you not mind the racism as long as they didn't involve your entity?

As for the "cancel culture" rubbish: if you say something in the public space you need to be able to stand behind it and face the criticism if warranted. You can't expect to say something awful and then check out without any damage before the Samual L Jackson/Pulp Fiction "Well, allow me to retort" part. Expecting to say something and then not be called on it isn't free speech, it is impunity, and no one is entitled to impunity from what they say or do.

OK. How about this: I come here for news about railroad preservation. If I wanted to hear self righteous social justice warrior crap, I'd go to a rally at the nearest dirty, crime-ridden liberal city.

There are more acceptable forums for THAT "rubbish".

And I'll end with a quote, based on your musings, that should really irk you -

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - Jesus Christ

I tell you what, the next time you are in court for a traffic ticket etc. or worse try that quote with a judge and see how he responds, and if he decides that you are excused. We have a right to decide what statements or actions are appropriate and which are beyond the pale, and to respond appropriately.

If you think there's seriously an issue with calling someone out for racist and misogynistic behaviors, you need a reality check. As PMC said, if you're going to say such vile things in public, you need to be prepared for the criticism and consequences. I can guarantee that if I went online and said "my name is Zach, I work for X railroad, and I think black people can't govern themselves", you'd better believe that I'd probably be looking for a job pretty soon. Ross came here, blabbed on about his multiple failed business ventures, and then said some incredibly offensive and immoral things. Where's the difference?

"Cancel culture" is just a term for people who are afraid of applying some critical thinking as to how their actions and words hurt others and get mad when what goes around, comes around.

What's that old saying? "The first person to screech RACIST! loses?"

Why not just rebut Ross' comment by listing all the enumerable functional democracies on the African Continent, and all the peoples who are content to live in those countries, and not flee to Western Countries, to show him the error of his ways?

Who says that? If it is racism, call it racism. I think the only people who say that are those looking to escape responsibility for their racism, i.e. those who want impunity.


Name one African country that wasn't a colony of the Europeans as late as the 1950s (some into the 1980s), within borders that were drawn by the Europeans in places where they historically never were, disrupting trade routes and migration (e.g. farmers in what is now Somalia who traditionally took their animals into the mountains in what is now Ethiopia in the summer, but can't now), leaving much of the land and wealth in the hands of white settlers to this day, and were left to pick up the pieces of the government within these artificial British and French-drawn borders and start over from scratch when the colonial administration and many of the government officials (all of them in the case of French colonies) picked up and went home? That's why context matters in any discussion. I'll give you a hint, just about not one inch was not a colony of the British and French until within the past 70 years. It is well known that post-colonial societies have problems with corruption after independence. For example, people in most of/all of the Eastern European countries are facing similar issues right now with corruption, self-rule etc. after being colonized by the Soviets/ Russians, some for less time than the African countries, ending 35 years ago. And they are not black.

For those of you who don't know: any theory or statement that attributes social characteristics, good or bad (almost always bad though) to a group of people/ ethnicity, not explained by history, but as a predetermined, inevitable and ineliminable trait of that ethnicity is racist, period.

OK kids. Enough bickering. You've made your points. Now move on.

Are you a moderator now? I don't like these political posts either, but as long as certain individuals are allowed to spam the board with them I feel I have no alternative but to respond. And I am probably older than you.

Calm down. I personally don't care which side of what fence anyone is on when you're here. Age has nothing to do with it. If I was a moderator, you wouldn't seeing these posts. Y'all go argue off-topic elsewhere cuz this ain't the place. Or have we forgotten that?

Let us not forget the title of this website and please adhere to the guidelines.

I am completely calm, you are the one who seems to be throwing a fit. And I don't appreciate being gaslit, or being spoken to like I am a child. You don't have any authority here, if you have concerns take them up with the moderators. I already have.