Recovery of steam engines dumped as rip-rap in New Zealand, including some Baldwins. Lots to see here.

http://www.baldwin-steam.org.nz/salvage/discovery.html
ryarger@rypn.org

Unreal! How about going after the B&M engine that got deep six'd? Does someone have a list of confirmed engines sunk or in a bank?

Joshua

> Unreal! How about going after the B&M
> engine that got deep six'd? Does someone
> have a list of confirmed engines sunk or in
> a bank?

> Joshua

What is the story behind the two derilects at the White Pass shops in Skagway? Saw them a couple of yeras ago, and they both look like they'd spent some time in the river. Anyone know what the future plans are?

dstorzek@elnet.com

> Recovery of steam engines dumped as rip-rap
> in New Zealand, including some Baldwins.
> Lots to see here.

Fabulous page! Incredible restoration plan! Although the video is great, I've often wished I could have personally seen the Rimutaka Incline and its hard-working Fell locomotives clawing their way up the 1 in 15. Looks like I just might have that opportunity after all.

Thanks for the link, Bob!

Best Regards,
Glenn

christensenge@yahoo.com

Dear Dennis:
They are both privately owned. At least one of them was turned right side up this year by it's new owner. I believe that there is another 4-6-0 and a rotary snowplow still in the river.
J.David

jdconrad@snet.net

> Dear Dennis:
> They are both privately owned. At least one
> of them was turned right side up this year
> by it's new owner. I believe that there is
> another 4-6-0 and a rotary snowplow still in
> the river.
> J.David

There was a report earlier this year that the White Pass is going to rebuild 4-6-0 #66. Reportedly the engine had been shopped and then turned into riprap.

I don't know if this is true; but, it came from someone who has close contact with the company.

I would hazard the guess that, if this is true, this work will be done after the #69 is rebuilt and returned to the railroad.

The company seems interested in developing excursion trains out of Carcross along Lake Bennett. The additional steam engines would be an added assest for this operation.

Brian Norden

While not a avid traveler, New Zealand is one of the few places I hope to get to before I check in at the Gate.

At the same time, I have to think.

Why is it that we can't even get "Old '97" (right down the street) in the park cleaned and painted and a roof over her head while these folks are dragging rip-rap off their rivers to restore?

New Zealand has families with financial challenges and demands on their time, children with TV, teenagers with perpetual headphones on their heads, and all the demographics that we do. How is it that they can pull this off?

Do they have some kind of "national conscience" regarding these artifacts? I don't know; I'm just asking.

What can we do better?



shawsinoly@aol.com

> Do they have some kind of "national
> conscience" regarding these artifacts?
> I don't know; I'm just asking.

> What can we do better?

Where do we start answering that question.....

1. Teach history in vibrant interactive ways that encourage a lifelong interest. Incumbent on parents, not schools. We have the school systenm our parents demand. Its failures are ours.

2. Regard our industrial heritage as the basis for the century of years we were at the top of the worldwide economic heap, rather that as an environmental disaster.

3. Stop moving every few years and take ownership of our communities on a long term basis.

4. Encourage a legal and moral system which promotes personal responsibility for consequences of ones actions rather than regarding every stupid injured party as a victim, thereby rationalizing the liability insurance crisis.

5. Stop the fantasy of regarding children as innocents who must be protected from themselves - let them get hands on from an early age, and learn from the sort of occasional injury all tool users suffer.

6. Develop a high regard for craftsmanship and teach it to students who have a natural prediliction for it rather than an academic bent. Blue collar work is what keeps our infrastructure working so professors can enjoy working plumbing and wiring.

7. Cease subsidizing huge corporations and encourage local small businesses who will contribute to local projects.

8. Start a railroad museum in Iraq, there is plenty of US funding available for projects there and none left here. Steam over KaiberPass anybody?

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Where do we start answering that
> question.....

> 1. Teach history in vibrant interactive ways
> that encourage a lifelong interest.
> Incumbent on parents, not schools. We have
> the school systenm our parents demand. Its
> failures are ours.

> 2. Regard our industrial heritage as the
> basis for the century of years we were at
> the top of the worldwide economic heap,
> rather that as an environmental disaster.

> 3. Stop moving every few years and take
> ownership of our communities on a long term
> basis.

> 4. Encourage a legal and moral system which
> promotes personal responsibility for
> consequences of ones actions rather than
> regarding every stupid injured party as a
> victim, thereby rationalizing the liability
> insurance crisis.

> 5. Stop the fantasy of regarding children as
> innocents who must be protected from
> themselves - let them get hands on from an
> early age, and learn from the sort of
> occasional injury all tool users suffer.

> 6. Develop a high regard for craftsmanship
> and teach it to students who have a natural
> prediliction for it rather than an academic
> bent. Blue collar work is what keeps our
> infrastructure working so professors can
> enjoy working plumbing and wiring.

> 7. Cease subsidizing huge corporations and
> encourage local small businesses who will
> contribute to local projects.

> 8. Start a railroad museum in Iraq, there is
> plenty of US funding available for projects
> there and none left here. Steam over
> KaiberPass anybody?

> dave

BIG AMEN.....................

I would add to quit using public money to subsidize sports arenas to feather the pockets of wealthy thieves, er, um, excuse me, I mean professional sports franchise owners, and lput some of it in preserving real communties. Alot of what happens in England, Europe, and New Zealand in the preservation field is subsidized.

We value overpaid buffons, they value heritage.

And, as an addendum to number 6; Teach the yuppies and thier larvea that an education isn't meant to make one immune from labor, but to teach one how to make labor more productive. We now have a mindset in this country that Americans are too educated or to advanced to actually engage in the processes that actucally produce something real.

I know that it is a little off topic, but a service economy is a second class economy. whomever holds the means of production is the master, and those who serve are the slaves.

Scott;

I did spend an enjoyable year living and working in Wellington, NZ. I visited as many preserved steam operations as I could, with two infants in tow.I also had a Canadian friend who's parents lived in Wellington, who "took us in". This was in 1990.

Comments:

1) New Zealanders have had to make do with what they have for decades. Shipping to/from NZ is expensive.

2) Social structure makes it possible for more people to partake. People seemed to care about others, and to accept eccentrics who played with trains, planes, boats, etc. Big cities don't exist in New Zealand; there are probably more people in LA than in all of NZ.

3) The father of this friend owned a crane rental company, and would, when asked, loan his cranes and crews, when the cranes were "driving past". No charge. Why? "Because the volunteers are doing good work, and I appreciate it".

4) Rivets came from the shipyards in Auckland. etc, etc.

5) TV did not exist (and probably still does not in some parts of the country) until fairly recently. eg, from what I remember, in Wellington NZ, TV did not exist in the '60s. So, you still have a generation of people who grew up without such mind-numbing distractions.

Just my thoughts on a fascinating country.

John Stewart
Ottawa, Canada.

freewrl-1@rogers.com

> Dave, you are one of them. Common sense is such a rare commodity..

Superheater@rrmail.com

I have said this before but worth repeating. Preservation is not a part of the American psyche, it is the shiney new that gets most attention. Like the new model of the SUV you see on the TV.

With the exception of a few examples, like George Washings house, preservation has not had the national attention or big bucks such as an Art Museum or even a majoy historic site.

And the bottom of preservation is Industrial Archaeology: Ships, Trains and Planes.
With rare exceptions the big dollars don't go there.

I am a museum person and a preservationist. I hope we can make a difference! The old stories and artifacts from the 19th century add craftsmanship
and humanity to the commercial throw it away world that is the 21st century.

We are not wimps; but we are a minority!


ted_miles@nps.gov

As always, Dave nails it. What about, coming off programs like rail camp, a technical porgram/ school/ trade program to teach "dying" arts like wood car restoration, boiler repair maintenance, forging, etc.? How about instead of doing an endowment help groups with restoration projects or for insurance, we set one up, much like a scholarship, for deserving students interested in learn these crafts for purpose of industrial restoration, stabilization, or reuse?

TJ

Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Please let me add my "amen" too. That is really a piece of profound writing Dave. You should have it published somewhere it would be read by the general public.

Best Regards,
Hugh