> Isn't that line 42-inch gauge?

Good question: I'll have to ask next time I'm there. One assumes certain things but mine RR gauges are variable.


Electric City Trolley Museum Association

Roger that; the B-9 0-6-0's and D-10 4-4-0's were built new with end cabs and wide fireboxes but RDG continued to rebuild narrow-firebox 4-6-0's into wide-firebox camelbacks through the 1920's.

Probably the last fatal camelback accident occurred near Valley Forge in May, 1948 when train 2048, engine 606 (L-7-s-b 4-6-0)was intentionally derailed while running 30 mph on track 4. The engine derailed to the right and ended up resting on its right side against an embankment. Enginer and fireman were killed. It is easy to speculate the accident with an end-cab engine would not have been fatal.

Electric City Trolley Museum Association

A "Buy a Rivet" campaign?

> I have received permission from our board of
> directors to investigate the feasibility of
> restoring #4/1187 to operation using
> volunteer labor and Strasburg funds for
> materials.

> I have struggled over the years to find some
> fiscally responsible way to get the engine
> into operation. The closest I was able to
> come was to convert it to oil with automatic
> controls so a fireman would not be needed.
> In this form the locomotive could possibly
> replace #33. The numbers just didn't quite
> make it and I was not too thrilled about the
> alterations.

> As soon as time and space are available we
> will start dismantling the engine to conduct
> an inspection to determine what would be
> needed in the way of repairs.

> IT IS QUITE POSSIBLE THAT THE REPAIRS WOULD
> BE TOO COSTLY FOR US TO UNDERTAKE. We will
> find out.

> If we go ahead with the project, the
> locomotive will be restored to it's 1187
> appearance with a slope back tender and it
> will burn antracite.

> I hope this works out. Our directors
> appreciate the historical significance but
> we still must justify the expense to the
> shareholders of the railroad. Hopefully we
> will be able to recoup our investment with
> photo freights and things like that.

Linn:

I have been reading this thread with interest. But the one thing I found rather ironic is the very next thread. It's about the WK&S. Here is a ex-READING line with ex-READING depots. I thought "gee - wouldn't it be kind of neat to see the 1187 running on a Reading line at least one time?" And then the thread a little further down also hit me; small locomotives in England moved around from one operator to another. Perhaps SRR might take this into consideration when trying to decide if the economics of restoring SRR 4/RDG 1187 would work out. Surely she is not a Thomas reproduction, but she IS a Camelback and would be the only one is service and certainly could attract visitors. Visits to museums around the country might tip the scales. She does appear to be small enough to move. You might want to check around to see what other museums think.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

> At this point all we can do is keep our
> fingers crossed that we don't find anything
> that is too costly to fix.


midlandblb@cs.com

> I am no accountant, and maybe since the Strasburg Rail Road is not a non profit, this is not possible. But maybe an outside organization

> could be formed, something like Friends of
> 1187, that could accept donations and then
> funnel them to the "volenteers"
> who would restore it.

> Thanks again for the effort and all the
> great work.

> Paul

Depending on things like ownership/control and how work/operation was performed-it would be possible to set up a 501c3 to restore the engine.

There have been "partnership" nonprofit/for profit organizations before-such as the one that existed between NorthStar Rail and Friends of the 261.

It might be easier to havea an existing organization with an exempt purpose consistent with the engine (aka Reading Tech/ARHS) get involved.

The bigger issue is administrative and psychological, maintaining comity between two different organizations.



superheater@rrmail.com

> An old Trains magazine that I have from the
> early 1940's calls these locomotives
> "Mother Hubbards" not camelbacks.
> The magazine goes on to say that a true
> camelback had the entire cab on top of the
> boiler. These were apparently such in the
> mid 1800's, per what was written in the
> magazine.

That's their opinion at Kalmbach.

Reading Company called them camelbacks.
At the RCT&HS, we have lots of actual company files and correspondence between officials during the steam era, and they use "camelback".

Mother Hubbard was some old Granny in a poem.

Don't forget, those guys at Kalmbach are the ones who insisted that there was a "plus" in between the front and rear engines of articulated steam: ala 2-6+6-4.

In all those trips to Virginia, I could never find the + on the 1218 . . . !

Yes, aside from the Very Good railroaders at the WK&S who operate the place with a tremondous sensitivity to the appeal of rural branchline Reading Company railroadin' is the virtually unspoiled rural character of the surrounding landscape. This contributes to a highly authentic, not too touristy experience. Wouldn't it be great if the 1187 was restored and moved from place to place on these fantastic lines- Strasburg, WK&S, and R&N. You can actually put it on a flatbed. It may be more realistic then ever seeing 1361 barnstorming the state of PA.!

> That's their opinion at Kalmbach.

> Reading Company called them camelbacks.
> At the RCT&HS, we have lots of actual
> company files and correspondence between
> officials during the steam era, and they use
> "camelback".

> Mother Hubbard was some old Granny in a
> poem.

> Don't forget, those guys at Kalmbach are the
> ones who insisted that there was a
> "plus" in between the front and
> rear engines of articulated steam: ala
> 2-6+6-4.

> In all those trips to Virginia, I could
> never find the + on the 1218 . . . !

In the twenties and thirties the B&O operated a pair of camelbacks on the local into Elkins, WV on the line now operated by the West Virginia Central. The locals refered to them as mother hubbards and that is what I learned to call them. The first time I heard camelback I had no idea what the guy was talking about. I think the names were more or less interchangeable depending on the railroad and the region.

John Bohon

jhbohon@yahoo.com

> In the twenties and thirties the B&O
> operated a pair of camelbacks on the local
> into Elkins, WV on the line now operated by
> the West Virginia Central. The locals
> refered to them as mother hubbards and that
> is what I learned to call them. The first
> time I heard camelback I had no idea what
> the guy was talking about. I think the names
> were more or less interchangeable depending
> on the railroad and the region.

> John Bohon

I think it was Burt Reynolds in a movie who stated something like:

" It all depends what part of the country you're standing in, as to how dumb you are."

But,
1187 was a READING engine.
Reading called em camelbacks.

And probably, some of the crews called them other things we can't put on here.

Whatever you like to call her, it sure will be neat to see her in steam.

Just thinking about this, though. Maybe Mother Hubbard is a good nick name. She is a "little old lady" !

One of the giants.

John E. Wootten, 1866 successor to James Millholland, Superintendent of the Phila. & Reading Locomotive Shops in Reading, Pa.

These two men's efforts to design a firebox to burn Anthracite resulted in the first "Wootten" locomotive built in 1877.

John Wootten started his career with a boyhood apprenticeship at Baldwin in Philadelphia.

- from "The Reading Railroad: History of a Coal Age Empire" by the late Jim Holton. A two volume hardcover book set, probably the best source of the overall history of "The Reading".

While all of your suggestions are good ones, I can assure you that Strasburg probably won't set up a 501(c)3 to take donations nor will the camelback become a roving ambassador. They just don't do that kind of stuff nor are they interested (that is meant to be taken kindly). They are strictly a business and not a nostalgia preservation group like most of y'all. Now if the sponsoring group wants to put up the funds to allow the engine to visit, then they just might (read: MIGHT) be open to discussion. I don't think most groups could afford it though. We're talking Thomas dollars here.

> Yes, aside from the Very Good railroaders at
> the WK&S who operate the place with a
> tremondous sensitivity to the appeal of
> rural branchline Reading Company railroadin'
> is the virtually unspoiled rural character
> of the surrounding landscape. This
> contributes to a highly authentic, not too
> touristy experience. Wouldn't it be great if
> the 1187 was restored and moved from place
> to place on these fantastic lines-
> Strasburg, WK&S, and R&N. You can
> actually put it on a flatbed. It may be more
> realistic then ever seeing 1361 barnstorming
> the state of PA.!

> While all of your suggestions are good ones,
> I can assure you that Strasburg probably
> won't set up a 501(c)3 to take donations nor
> will the camelback become a roving
> ambassador. They just don't do that kind of
> stuff nor are they interested (that is meant
> to be taken kindly). They are strictly a
> business and not a nostalgia preservation
> group like most of y'all.

Herb, having spent most of 2003 working with Linn on a "railfan project," and planning to take another swipe at him after the holidays, I'll have to disagree with you.

The folks who work at the Strasburg Rail Road are indeed good business folk - and thank goodness for that. But if you think the guys in the shop and the locomotive cabs don't love what they're doing, get to know a few.

There is no such thing as "strictly business" in the steam business. The capital invested will earn a much greater, and much easier return if put to another use. The folks at Strasburg, just like the folks at any other steam operation, make up the difference in the pleasure they take home with their paychecks.

And I will have to say that some of the best "preservation" I've seen is being done at Strasburg. Look at their freight cars, at the tower, at the coaches. Look at the locomotives.

Good business? Absolutely. Strictly business? No way.

And if I have to dig out that picture of Linn clowning around in 1987 to prove it, I will ;-)

JAC

I can understand the B&O calling them Mother Hubbards, since they had the original "Camels" which had the cab perched on top of the boiler.

Of course, there have been quite a few things printed in Trains, R&R and the other mags that have been misleading because they are used in a universal context. There are so many regional variations of railroad terms, that you have to think twice before you use them universally.

For instance, don't come to B&M country to ride the hack, cabin or crummy. But you might get a seat in the buggy!

Rob

Herb,

You hit on the difference between the US and the UK. Here, such a suggestion is off-the-wall, It's not "business."

Across the pond, you wouldn't have such an engine restored WITHOUT the idea it would barnstorm around line-to-line.

It's still business, but with a less capitalistic hard edge. They put the fun first, it seems.

Rob

> While all of your suggestions are good ones,
> I can assure you that Strasburg probably
> won't set up a 501(c)3 to take donations nor
> will the camelback become a roving
> ambassador. They just don't do that kind of
> stuff nor are they interested (that is meant
> to be taken kindly). They are strictly a
> business and not a nostalgia preservation
> group like most of y'all. Now if the
> sponsoring group wants to put up the funds
> to allow the engine to visit, then they just
> might (read: MIGHT) be open to discussion. I
> don't think most groups could afford it
> though. We're talking Thomas dollars here.


rdavis@rypn.org

I would hope that possibly it may hapen that someone or some group on the State level in PA. would take a hard look and See the potential of promoting our steam operating railroad resources in a more impactful way then it has been done up to now. Tourism is strictly business--big business in a post industrial economy.