What is the scoop with 4-8-4?

Will #9 or the #1533 ever be reassembled and put on display?

Thanks in advance for any info,

-Alan Levy


alanl759@aol.com

My question would be, why rebuild a Mexican 4-8-4 for a shortline, when 1533 is a gorgeous little branchline C.N. loco. I would love to see the 1533 rebuilt and operated again as a C.N. locomotive. I'm told that during an attempted rebuild, somebody cut a hunk out of her boiler and all but destroyed it. Maybe this is an overstatement.
The #9 is an army 0-6-0 and will pound the rails to death while operating at speed. However, both locos deserve better than to sit outdoor without protection.

glueck@maine.edu

> My question would be, why rebuild a Mexican
> 4-8-4 for a shortline

Not knowing the ultimate plans for the Mexican 4-8-4 by it's owners I don't dare say.....BUT!......I sometimes wonder why a certain outfit in Ohio wouldn't be interested having said loco to star alongside or at least support their near-identical 4-8-4 and perhaps swapping a small 2-8-0 more suited for the NHI&I for it? Has anyone compared the specifications for a Mex 4-8-4 with a GTW 4-8-4? Except for a 3" difference in driver size, I would bet they would be nearly identical....



gbrail@yahoo.com

Here are some answers to your questions....

The decision to restore 1533, 9 or search for a new engine was made back around 1994. At the time, 9 was ruled out because it would be rather hard on the track. 1533 was ruled out because regulations at that time would not have permitted economic repairs to the boiler. I am under the impression that those regulations have changed and it is now feasible to repair 1533.

After the above evaluations were made, management went on a search for locomotives and decided that the Mexican 4-8-4 was the best option. At this point a significant amount of work has been put into the engine and managment wants to complete the project as oppose to abandoning it and shifting focus to 1533. There have been many rumors that the NH&I wants to run offline trips with the 4-8-4. Management has indicated this would be desirable but no hard and fast plans exist. The current method of counting service days instead of service months also makes it rather economical for a small operator to run a large locomotive because they have a longer time period to recoup the large restoration costs.

Also keep in mind that the current situation that No. 9 is in (cab removed and bottom of firebox cut away) is the result of an attempted restoration in the early 1990s prior to the current management taking over the railroad.

Finally, 1533 has not been forgotten. The railroad has 1533 on its list of long-term projects, however, more pressing matters have kept it sidelined. The NH&I has a very capable group of individuals in charge and I believe that one day you will see a fire in 1533 again. The best way to ensure this is to get out and support the railroad.

Jeff

smith@drexel.edu

NH&I #9 has been up for sale by D.F. Barnhardt for quite some time. Geez, 35K is even in my price range(But not if I want to buy a house any time soon!). Seth

http://www.trainstramstrolleys.com/equi ... tive/1008/


Wilmington & Western RR
sethajackson@hotmail.com

I can vouch for this with the current NH&I team: these are true steam people who understand both the historical value and the revenue-producing value of all their locomotives.

What they have done in the past decade or so is nothing short of providing the most stable tourist steam operation on the line since the branch's earliest tourist days.

And, yes, I remember seeing #1533 steam when I was a wee young lad. There once was a time when family outings to New Hope and Flemington could keep a steam-crazed kid rather busy while Mom shopped.

I look forward to that remaining true for my son, at least in New Hope (and I suspect once again on Flemington in the near future).

Rob

rdavis@rypn.org

Rob -

You are 100% correct. Frankly, what they have done in the last decade is nothing short of remarkable. The NH&I went through some very rough times in the mid and late 1990s. These guys made lemonade out of a pile of lemons and have given the railroad a very bright future. Many critics of the NH&I don't understand the dire situation that existed in the mid-1990s. Tough decisions were made on what to invest in in order to keep things going. Unfortunatly, projects like 1533 were not possible. In the future they will be. You have to give the group a lot of credit for being mature enough to not start something they didn't have the resources to finish.

smith@drexel.edu

I was wondering how is the town of New Hope treating the railroad? Have they stopped trying to shut or regulate the steam operations. I am trying to get my aunt who is a supervisor in nearby Doylestown to say something to the supervisor of New Hope. But I have heard nothing from her. The way I see it the certain people in New Hope are a bad site not the Railroad.

BEDT15@aol.com

It has been my understanding that the 4-8-4 is owned by GNERF (Great North East Railway Foundation, of West Sand Lake, NY, the group that obtained the locomotive in 1965), and is leased to NHIR for a ten-year period (starting in 1996?). Is that indeed the situation? Or is it now owned outright by NHIR? There were some rather "questionable" old repairs on the firebox and running gear; have they been addressed?

hpincus@mindspring.com

Here's my take on the NH&I. I was involved there back in the early 90's and can attest to the situation the railroad has been through. The first management group of the current company overextended themselves financially too quickly and racked up a lot of bills in a short period of time. The wanted to replicate thirty years of Strasburg success overnight, and it just didn't work. The first mechanical staff (1990-1993) was an experienced group of guys (Strasburg RR-trained) whose heart and soul were dedicated to the railroad's survival, were very skilled and capable, and meant well in every sense of the word. The management at the time expressed an interest in getting 0-6-0 #9 running about 1992 however, the financial siutation fell apart when the staff was a quarter of the way through the project. So the engine was left to sit unfinished. The situation worsened between mgt vs. mechanics, and soon changed occured. The second management team of the current company arrived in mid-1993 and "cleaned house" of the first group of mechanics and brought in their own steam people while phasing out the old ones. Unfortunately the first group of guys got an undeserved bad rap which still seems to persist. While the current group seems to talk a lot of big plans, they have been able to get bills paid, debts cleared and paid on time--they have done a very good job with the fiduciary end of things. Getting freight customers for the NH&I has always been a struggle and they have managed to get some more business for a line that for all intents and purposes is financially inert.

As for 1533, she has had a hard life. Her boiler was inspected by Strasburg RR people in the early 90's and was deemed very much repairable. In fact they had recommended that she receive repairs first before #40 (which never happened). The boiler plug holes torched out in the 80's could be patched with little problem. Her tender is shot (with a tree growing up through it) and would need to be completely rebuilt, as well as her pilot truck. Many parts are missing from the loco so that is also an issue. Jerry Jacobson had expressed an interest to getting 1533 back in the early 90's but nothing ever transpired. The current group also claims to have "future plans" for 1533 but considering their long-term finanical status this is highly doubtful IMHO.

I'm also doubtful that the NdeM 4-8-4 will ever turn a wheel under steam on the NH&I. The management are big fans of 4-8-4's and mainline steam operations in general (this is the same team that ran C&O #614 on NJ Transit in the late 90's) and the engine seems way too big for their operation. It just doesn't make sense to run an engine that big in limited tourist service on a light branchline, no matter how compelling or eloquent the argument. I've been told that it needs A LOT of work to run again. Realistically, my bets are that it will probably not happen in this lifetime.

> Here are some answers to your questions....

> The decision to restore 1533, 9 or search
> for a new engine was made back around 1994.
> At the time, 9 was ruled out because it
> would be rather hard on the track. 1533 was
> ruled out because regulations at that time
> would not have permitted economic repairs to
> the boiler. I am under the impression that
> those regulations have changed and it is now
> feasible to repair 1533.

> After the above evaluations were made,
> management went on a search for locomotives
> and decided that the Mexican 4-8-4 was the
> best option. At this point a significant
> amount of work has been put into the engine
> and managment wants to complete the project
> as oppose to abandoning it and shifting
> focus to 1533. There have been many rumors
> that the NH&I wants to run offline trips
> with the 4-8-4. Management has indicated
> this would be desirable but no hard and fast
> plans exist. The current method of counting
> service days instead of service months also
> makes it rather economical for a small
> operator to run a large locomotive because
> they have a longer time period to recoup the
> large restoration costs.

> Also keep in mind that the current situation
> that No. 9 is in (cab removed and bottom of
> firebox cut away) is the result of an
> attempted restoration in the early 1990s
> prior to the current management taking over
> the railroad.

> Finally, 1533 has not been forgotten. The
> railroad has 1533 on its list of long-term
> projects, however, more pressing matters
> have kept it sidelined. The NH&I has a
> very capable group of individuals in charge
> and I believe that one day you will see a
> fire in 1533 again. The best way to ensure
> this is to get out and support the railroad.

> Jeff

> Here's my take on the NH&I. I was
> involved there back in the early 90's and
> can attest to the situation the railroad has
> been through. The first management group of
> the current company overextended themselves
> financially too quickly and racked up a lot
> of bills in a short period of time. The
> wanted to replicate thirty years of
> Strasburg success overnight, and it just
> didn't work. The first mechanical staff
> (1990-1993) was an experienced group of guys
> (Strasburg RR-trained) whose heart and soul
> were dedicated to the railroad's survival,
> were very skilled and capable, and meant
> well in every sense of the word. The
> management at the time expressed an interest
> in getting 0-6-0 #9 running about 1992
> however, the financial siutation fell apart
> when the staff was a quarter of the way
> through the project. So the engine was left
> to sit unfinished. The situation worsened
> between mgt vs. mechanics, and soon changed
> occured. The second management team of the
> current company arrived in mid-1993 and
> "cleaned house" of the first group
> of mechanics and brought in their own steam
> people while phasing out the old ones.
> Unfortunately the first group of guys got an
> undeserved bad rap which still seems to
> persist. While the current group seems to
> talk a lot of big plans, they have been able
> to get bills paid, debts cleared and paid on
> time--they have done a very good job with
> the fiduciary end of things. Getting freight
> customers for the NH&I has always been a
> struggle and they have managed to get some
> more business for a line that for all
> intents and purposes is financially inert.

> As for 1533, she has had a hard life. Her
> boiler was inspected by Strasburg RR people
> in the early 90's and was deemed very much
> repairable. In fact they had recommended
> that she receive repairs first before #40
> (which never happened). The boiler plug
> holes torched out in the 80's could be
> patched with little problem. Her tender is
> shot (with a tree growing up through it) and
> would need to be completely rebuilt, as well
> as her pilot truck. Many parts are missing
> from the loco so that is also an issue.
> Jerry Jacobson had expressed an interest to
> getting 1533 back in the early 90's but
> nothing ever transpired. The current group
> also claims to have "future plans"
> for 1533 but considering their long-term
> finanical status this is highly doubtful
> IMHO.

> I'm also doubtful that the NdeM 4-8-4 will
> ever turn a wheel under steam on the
> NH&I. The management are big fans of
> 4-8-4's and mainline steam operations in
> general (this is the same team that ran
> C&O #614 on NJ Transit in the late 90's)
> and the engine seems way too big for their
> operation. It just doesn't make sense to run
> an engine that big in limited tourist
> service on a light branchline, no matter how
> compelling or eloquent the argument. I've
> been told that it needs A LOT of work to run
> again. Realistically, my bets are that it
> will probably not happen in this lifetime.
Scooter, thanks for the kind words. I was one of the mechanics who put 40 together and kept her running day in and day out for three years, 1990-1993. As a first hand wittness, I'd say you're take on things is right on the mark, although most of us quit while Mr. Buzzard was still in charge. How the currant management has kept things rolling is a mystery to me, but I guess they deserve some credit for it. I've seen 40 recentley, looks nice, I think I'll keep my opinions on her condition to myself, don't want to sound negative. I guess It's natural to trash talk your predacessors, But you are absolutely correct about our dedication to that railroad. Nothing kept us from doing whatever was needed to keep the place going.We did everything, often working seven 12 hour days, week after week. I'm not complaining, we loved it. It was the most rewarding job I've ever had, and I've had a few.Hey Scooter, do I know you?

met1533@aol.com

> It has been my understanding that the 4-8-4
> is owned by GNERF (Great North East Railway
> Foundation, of West Sand Lake, NY, the group
> that obtained the locomotive in 1965), and
> is leased to NHIR for a ten-year period
> (starting in 1996?). Is that indeed the
> situation? Or is it now owned outright by
> NHIR? There were some rather
> "questionable" old repairs on the
> firebox and running gear; have they been
> addressed?

Howard, And others. You are correct in that NH&I is leasing the 4-8-4. The owners will never be able to retreive it and it may just sit in New Hope and rot forever. If I were the owners I would be making a lot of noise. Very little if any work is being done to it. It was torn apart and left outside for long periods of time.

I have seen the loco and the firebox is totally shot. It looks like a sewer pipe on wheels. Running gear is good. Tender full of bunker c oil. NH&I will never be able to rebuild it or any of the locomotives other than #40. There will never be enough money, knowledge, or help to ever put the 4-8-4 back together.

The mastermechanic there is the only one with enough knowledge, experience and know how. If he should leave they would be a hurting just to keep #40 running. The other couple of employees were taught by him. They came there cold. The rr can barely keep up with current maintainance.

The money isn't there and never will be. They have a good manager at the top running it as a business instead of running it as a hobby. This is the only reason the NH&I survives today.


Mikado425@comcast.net

The amazing thing about the NH&I is that it continues to attract people with negative attitudes. If these people put their negative energy into helping the railroad, the NH&I could do wonderful things. May I ask Big Mike - what makes you so qualified to pass judgement on what is going on at the NH&I?

Sometimes I think that the railfan/preservation community does more to ensure its demise than it does to help the preservation effort.

smith@drexel.edu

> The amazing thing about the NH&I is that
> it continues to attract people with negative
> attitudes. If these people put their
> negative energy into helping the railroad,
> the NH&I could do wonderful things. May
> I ask Big Mike - what makes you so qualified
> to pass judgement on what is going on at the
> NH&I?

> Sometimes I think that the
> railfan/preservation community does more to
> ensure its demise than it does to help the
> preservation effort.

Many people in the past since 1966 have been shot in the back by the NH&I. History will show this. Talk to old timers that used to volunteer there. I know some of the people very well that used to work there. And I know some of the people that still work there.

I'm not bashing. But the manager there now is running the railroad as a business and not a hobby railroad as it was in the past. If it wasn't for him there would not be a NH&IRR. The general public, tourists and what freight they have is what keeps the NH&I alive and NOT RAILFANS. That goes for all the other tourist railroads in this good ole USA.

Railfans have never supported tourists railroads enough to pay bills. Most like to go out and take pictures and watch steam but rarely pay to ride the trains. The NH&I is paying like never before but it never will be a R&N or OC. Its not in the cards.


Mikado425@comcast.net

> They have a good manager at the top running
> it as a business instead of running it as a
> hobby. This is the only reason the NH&I
> survives today.

And there lies the lesson, no?

Good management can make or break.