Was reading about the new 2005 compliant locos being made by GE/EMD, the "GEVO" and SD70 variant.

Both are in the 4400 HP area. Are the 6000 HP machines dead or a rarely ordered premium model?

Additionally, there was much discussion about the merits of AC traction a few years back, but lately, orders I've seen have been DC. (From a business standpoint-never saw the economic merits of being able to run a loco at crawl speed)

If your answer is that 6000 HP/ AC traction are "stillborn" technologies-either failing to meet promise or economically infeasible-would you presserve an AC 6000 or SD90MAC?


superheater@rrmail.com

An aquaintance runs the SD90MAC's on coal trains out of Bill,WY and when I talked to him a while ago, he had nothing negative to say about them.

> Was reading about the new 2005 compliant
> locos being made by GE/EMD, the
> "GEVO" and SD70 variant.

> Both are in the 4400 HP area. Are the 6000
> HP machines dead or a rarely ordered premium
> model?

> Additionally, there was much discussion
> about the merits of AC traction a few years
> back, but lately, orders I've seen have been
> DC. (From a business standpoint-never saw
> the economic merits of being able to run a
> loco at crawl speed)

> If your answer is that 6000 HP/ AC traction
> are "stillborn"
> technologies-either failing to meet promise
> or economically infeasible-would you
> presserve an AC 6000 or SD90MAC?

> An aquaintance runs the SD90MAC's on coal
> trains out of Bill,WY and when I talked to
> him a while ago, he had nothing negative to
> say about them.

6000 does indeed seem to have run into problems and not found favor.

AC has found very wide acceptance in heavy tonnage drag service, especially out west. A number of roads, however, have found the additional first expense of AC hard to justify against the modearte and specialized improvements in performance.

Western roads seem to try to segregate their AC in Powder River coal and other dedicated drag service while using DC as the maid of all work. CSX, on the other hand, seems to still like AC but run it fairly promiscuously MUed with DC power all over the system (at least they do on the parts of the former B&O I see every day).

The new Trains has a nice chart of AC versus DC orders throughout the 1990s.


eledbetter@rypn.org

I don't think that the 6000hp technology is dead, it's just being reapplied. I remember reading that the GEVO units have a 12 cyl block not a 16 cyl which is about the same hp/cyl as the 6000 hp units. The builders are just working towards the better mouse trap.

The 6000 hp units are really big and may not fit the spacing of the older service facilities.



pfdx@aol.com

> I don't think that the 6000hp technology is
> dead, it's just being reapplied. I remember
> reading that the GEVO units have a 12 cyl
> block not a 16 cyl which is about the same
> hp/cyl as the 6000 hp units. The builders
> are just working towards the better mouse
> trap.

> The 6000 hp units are really big and may not
> fit the spacing of the older service
> facilities.

There are two points in this thread that engineers
have told me are very important.
First, control of Creep Speed is critical to uniform loading and unloading of unit trains.
Second;
Mixing of the different types of power shows up as OK in the computer studies but doesn't work
well in actual practice. The Locomotive engineers have found that when power is mixed the units that develop higher torque at lower speeds will be "burning the rail" and causing track damage
while the other units have not yet reached their
max.
It was this explanation by one engineer I know that caused the roundhouse to quit mixing the units when they arranged power for the trains.
Jim

> There are two points in this thread that
> engineers
> have told me are very important.
> First, control of Creep Speed is critical to
> uniform loading and unloading of unit
> trains.
> Second;
> Mixing of the different types of power shows
> up as OK in the computer studies but doesn't
> work
> well in actual practice. The Locomotive
> engineers have found that when power is
> mixed the units that develop higher torque
> at lower speeds will be "burning the
> rail" and causing track damage
> while the other units have not yet reached
> their
> max.
> It was this explanation by one engineer I
> know that caused the roundhouse to quit
> mixing the units when they arranged power
> for the trains.
> Jim

I work around and run AC's on a regular basis. CSX has de-rated all but 16 of their AC6000's to 4400 hp (actually 4700) for a number of reliability and performance reasons, low speed vibration problems and prime mover reliability among them. I read on-line that a mining operation in Australia that has 8 of them was experiencing horrible availability and reliability problems with theirs. CSX did go back for more heavy AC4400's (magnums to the fans) which seem to be working well, and have just bought more SD70MAC's from EMD. (Rumor has is that CSX would be an all GE road were it not for the fact that GM is a major automobile shipper.)

The trend is clearly to get more hp from fewer cylinders for fuel economy and lower pollution levels, hence the GE Evolution series 12 cyl. 4400 hp. units.

And yes, examples should be preserved, just like someone should have saved Amtrak P30CH's, and SDP40F's and would some museum please save a F40PH (St. Louis this is right up your alley).

pww57@hotmail.com

Both the EMD 265H and the GE/Deutz 16 cylinder engines had developmental problems. I'm not sure what the issue were with the GE engine (vibration?)-but the entire business turned into a lawsuit.

It has been said that the EMD engine had problems no unlike the early Alco 244's-but cannot verify the veracity of that statement. The 265 was the result of a new computerized design process. While they may have cut a lot of lead time out-they appear to have lost it on the other end.

The market for the 6000hp motor AC units was supposed to be time sensitive fast freight based upon maximization of expensive assets. Due to reliability concerns, this concept did not pan out and these new units seem to be working mineral freights-where old locos used to be sent to live out their final days. (PC 6 motor Alcos
in Mingo Junction service).

So, EMD decided to tweak the existing 16-710G to meet Tier II-with GE starting from scratch and designing a seconf brand new design-on their own this time. 4300-4500 hp seems to be what the railroads want to purchase right now.

> Was reading about the new 2005 compliant
> locos being made by GE/EMD, the
> "GEVO" and SD70 variant.

> Both are in the 4400 HP area. Are the 6000
> HP machines dead or a rarely ordered premium
> model?

> Additionally, there was much discussion
> about the merits of AC traction a few years
> back, but lately, orders I've seen have been
> DC. (From a business standpoint-never saw
> the economic merits of being able to run a
> loco at crawl speed)

> If your answer is that 6000 HP/ AC traction
> are "stillborn"
> technologies-either failing to meet promise
> or economically infeasible-would you
> presserve an AC 6000 or SD90MAC?


newhaven0401-NOSPAM-@verizon.net

> And yes, examples should be preserved, just
> like someone should have saved Amtrak
> P30CH's, and SDP40F's and would some museum
> please save a F40PH (St. Louis this is right
> up your alley).

Dammit, Paul, Chris saved Amtrak F40 231 and SDP40F 644, California State RR Museum saved 281, the RR Museum of Pa. has an E60 set aside for it, I know of one other F40 that's spoken for by a private party, and I'm working with other parties to assure that other F40s are saved. What more do you want? (Oh--sorry, I didn't get consulted about the Pooches.)

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> Dammit, Paul, Chris saved Amtrak F40 231 and
> SDP40F 644, California State RR Museum saved
> 281, the RR Museum of Pa. has an E60 set
> aside for it, I know of one other F40 that's
> spoken for by a private party, and I'm
> working with other parties to assure that
> other F40s are saved. What more do you want?
> (Oh--sorry, I didn't get consulted about the
> Pooches.)

This is what I get for not having the time to keep up with what is happening. I have a fair sized collection of hobby mags that have never been taken out of their mailing wrappers. I'm lucky if I have time to check out this site and others like it a couple of times a month. I knew more in general about the industry/hobby before I went to work in it. I'm far from the most organized guy around, but when you spend most days and nights on the road it just doesn't lend itself to having a great deal of time for this stuff.

pww57@hotmail.com