A very interesting take in this article on the events of last October. Not to rehash old issues, but beyond SRI's "engineman for an hour", "Railcamp" at Steamtown, and your current average volunteer opportunities, what have we truly done to insure steam operation for even the next generation?

I guess this has hit home to me since, with the loss of my dad at a pretty young age (58), it occurs to me that many of the guys who learned from the last of the steam age may not be around in say, 20 years. By that time yours truly will be well into my 50's, and while I see (and know, thankfully) a very dedicated nd core group of people under 40, the reality is that I don't know if there are enough of us to keep rail preservation going to the extent it is now by the time we are nearing what for most is "middle age."

Is it time to seriously begin a national training program for steam mechanics, boilermakers, fireman/ engineers, carpenters, upholsters, etc. so that they can get and have the experience to preserve, protect, and operate this equipment 50 years from now? Not just clinics on wood car repair, or "sit in the cab and feel like an engineer", but to truly train, test, and apprentice beneath and from those who are in the know? While my heart is in steam and I know the basics of how they operate, the reality is my actual training/ and apprenticeship experience there-in is nil. And although there are guys who can knock your socks of with what the knowledge they have and experience they have in the under 40 crowd (Jason Johnson at OC for instance) they are few and far between.

What can we do, as Kevin Keefe states, to "sustain the October Revolution?" Will there be someplace in ten years where my then 13-year- old son and/ or 10-year-old daughter can train or begin studying (if they so desire) a trade, craft, or field in rail preservation?

TJ

Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Lots of talk about this back a couple years ago, no appreciable action as far as I can tell.

Good recent news from HIT Entertainment indicated reinvestment in Thomas - maybe we can catch some new ones still in diapers.

One real difficulty is the lack of intensively operated programs in this country where it is possible to get a deep and broad exposure for more than the occasional weekends light intermittent duty. It isn't possible to become truly competent and remain so if your operating hours are maybe 40 per year stretched out over a 4 month period.

The intensive operators are folks like Cass, Grand Canyon, D&SNGRR, who have hired staffs because they must know their workers will be available when and where they need them.

Internship possibilities at intensively operated lines, international exchange programs, many potential venues for building these sorts of programs can be explored if only those with the power to do so are interested.

Larger question to consider: why don't we teach less academically inclined students a technical skills curriculum instead of pretending all students are college material? This could start with kids in the Middle School age, and provide us as a society with a good number of machinists, plumbers, electricians, etc who have the skills and training at age 18 to get a well-paying job. Beats barely having the literacy to read "Do you want fries with that?"

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Is it time to seriously begin a national
> training program for steam mechanics,
> boilermakers, fireman/ engineers,
> carpenters, upholsters, etc. so that they
> can get and have the experience to preserve,
> protect, and operate this equipment 50 years
> from now? Not just clinics on wood car
> repair, or "sit in the cab and feel
> like an engineer", but to truly train,
> test, and apprentice beneath and from those
> who are in the know?

> What can we do, as Kevin Keefe states, to
> "sustain the October Revolution?"
> Will there be someplace in ten years where
> my then 13-year- old son and/ or 10-year-old
> daughter can train or begin studying (if
> they so desire) a trade, craft, or field in
> rail preservation?

I'll tackle this narrowly from the steam point of view.

I think the training and skills preservation is a secondary problem--we have a primary problem we need to solve first. That is: working out the sustainable economics of steam operations. We need to build some business models (for profit, non profit, or both) that will generate enough cash flow to fund both out-of-pocket operating costs AND long-term capital reinvestment costs.

I see a few operations which have solved pieces of this problem. One is the for-profit tourist railroad operating as part of a larger, supporting heritage tourism economy: Strasburg, D&S, Grand Canyon. These folks seem to be doing well, but not being privy to their complete annual reports and financials its hard to know if they are really at the point of long-term sustainability from internally generated revenues from operations (translation--not in need of period infusions of cash from the public sector or from the owner's wallets).

Another is the nonprofit museum/educational institution model. Some promising approaches seem to be "right-sizing"--operating rolling stock and a physical plant modest enough to be cheap to maintain, but large enough or intriguing enough to offer a product of high and attractive quality. WW&F is one example, so long as they don't lay TOO much track. Even more creative is SRI--using a big steamer and a small steamer as the centerpiece of an educational and interpretive institution. Here the "service" or "product" is not an excursion train ride, but something more like what the sailing community does with Sail Training windjammer crusies--an educational or edutainment experience, with a strong hands-on component--and in many cases a premium price tag.

Then there is operating as an adjunct of component of a major museum or historic site with a larger overall interpretive mission: NCTM, CSRM, Georgetown Loop, and so on.

To get back to TJ's question, though, I think if we can come up with these or other business models, one thing they will do is throw off the resources (read money) necessary to train people in the specialized skills, in conjuntion with training they get from elsewhere in the general skills like machinist's training or welding or carpentry.

To state my case another way--until we have a reliable long-term market into which to place graduates of the hypothetical steam trade school or program, how long could the program last, and how much good would it do?

eledbetter@rypn.org

Both Dave and Erik hit strong points here: there has to be jobs out there to give today's youth a reason to train for these type of positions, and to do that, we have to get back to the notion that craftsmen ship is to be respected and even honored. Sadly, that means re-inventing the wheel: going back to an educational idea that you aren't somehow a lesser person for not going to college, or more important, to move away from the ideal that Higher Education = Money, and return to the ideal that a trade IS education, and not some lowly postion. In turn, we need to teach our children that you can make a living in a trade, and although you may not charge $100 an hour, that you should and can work in a trade. Carrying that to our own facilities/ profession: it doesn't mean that volunteerism isn't important and doesn't need to be taught and shown to our children, but it does mean that all of us need to sit down and realize that:

a.) To pay someone means to hold them accountable. I love history, and there is no doubt that I have and will continue to volunteer in history-related activities, but I do have to put food on the table and feed my family. I was a locksmith and sold steel doors for three years before I was able to get a position at a museum, and that experience has proven invaluable, and helps me to respect trades and my current position that much more(and yes, I made more selling steel doors). Thankfully, the museum I now work for understood that those kind of experiences, though not strictly in the humanities, could be beneficial, and I like to think I have saved our institution headaches that they may have otherwise had becuase I knew where to go and what to look for during, say, or renovation of our depot.

b.) If your paid to do a job that you have trained to do the chances are that much higher you and your employer will benefit. You will also have to retrain potenital employers to the idea of what "education" means, and thata trade-school education and real-world experience can be equal to "book-learnin'."

c.) As far as the sustainable economics of steam goes: If someone pays you for a service, that denotes a level of respect. If we want to be considered more than a "cute" hobby, than people need to see us providing a useful, important, and yes, even at times expensive, service. What did October teach us? That if you make a trip a "photo charter" people are willing to spend $250-$300 and will fill an 80-100 seat train, but for a $10-$15 coach seat, good luck filling the train. We are a living-breathing passport to the past; that IS a commodity, and it SHOULD be treated as such.

Waiting for the flaming arrows like the 7th Calvary......

TJ



Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

I think we need to look beyond where the next generation of steam-engine machinists and coach carpenters is going to come from.

Industrial (not just railroad) museums can be a farm team for several classes of American worker: railroaders, logistics managers, and craftspeople, as well as historians and restorers. One of the goals of the Steam railroading Institute is to expose young people, in whatever depth we can manage through either an afternoon's field trip or several years of volunteering, to the range of knowledge represented by the railroad. Briefly, that's civil and mechanical engineering, physics, chemistry, economics, logistics, geography, and a whole list of skills and trades within each of these.

Perhaps because of its early association with a university, the PM 1225 project has produced 2 or 3 Captains of Industry in railroading and quite a few Lance Corporals of Industry. (I won't mention who these guys are now, because one of them has described to me what happens to your railroad career if you become "an outed railfan.") I think the 1225 project was of value in reinforcing these persons' interest in the railroad industry, and that both the individuals and the industry profited from it.

It's not just for future managers. As described above, railroad museums supply exposure to the skilled trades that's lacking in the educational system. I think our institutions will do all right at finding someone to roll tubes, if we can perform the useful function of teaching people respect for productivity and getting young people interested in technology. What I want to see is not just a young person varnishing a wood car, but using a CAD program to lay out a new firebox. That is, acquiring acquiring the skill and confidence necessary to take on the world. If you can keep one of these monstrosities running, you can do anything.

For more preaching on this subject, see the article in the old Locomotive and Railway Preservation Magazine on the Bergen County Technical School. Seeing New Jersey high schoolers counting staybolts in a 2-8-0 and calculating allowable working pressure gave me an epiphany about the role of old hardware in reaching the young. (Although their eyes really did light up when they learned how much a stationary engineer can make.)

Aarne Frobom
The Steam Railroading Institute
P. O. Box 665
Owosso, MI 48867-0665

At the risk of being flippant and/or an embittered working class guy, perhaps the easiest way to impart these skills would be to organize an exchange program with China. They are still set up for the technology. The primitive living and working conditions probably aren't much different than railroaders experienced 70 years ago in North America. And besides, since we've sent all the rest of our industrial jobs over there, we may as well send those also. Sounds like just the thing GWB and his rich business cronies would go for.

ryarger@rypn.org

> At the risk of being flippant and/or an
> embittered working class guy, perhaps the
> easiest way to impart these skills would be
> to organize an exchange program with China.
> They are still set up for the technology.
> The primitive living and working conditions
> probably aren't much different than
> railroaders experienced 70 years ago in
> North America. And besides, since we've sent
> all the rest of our industrial jobs over
> there, we may as well send those also.
> Sounds like just the thing GWB and his rich
> business cronies would go for.

And when they come back, they will know a little about how things are done in China, and not a whit about the way things MUST be done here (i.e. OSHA, ASME, NBIC, FRA codes and requirments, etc.). The Chinese don't adhere to any codes; that's why Dave Conrad to had to virtually re-engineer the engines he brought over here.

So far, I don't see any demand for the skills we're talking about, if you measure demand by how the people with the skills are treated (mostly as cannon fodder - use them up and there will be more eager-beavers to take their place) as well as what they can look forward to career-wise.

The majority of the museum/tourist railroad/restoration jobs out there now are volunteer or are near-minimum wage. In some cases, it's because the entities take full advantage of the desires and naivete of the neophytes; in others (the majority) there just isn't the money to pay any better or provide much to look forward to in terms of advancement, especially for someone with a family to support. There isn't much, if any, of a career path; an "industry leader" doesn't make much more than an ashpan cleaner, and even the few that do are just that: FEW. The "industry" is too small and too poverty-stricken to have more than a tiny handful of well-paid leaders.

IMO, the industry "gets by" today mostly because of the small cadre of people who are willing to do the work and put in the hours more for love of the work than for the money. The trouble is, in most cases the love of the work doesn't go very far at the grocery store.

Actually, Bob, I was thinking more along the lines of some of the very active preserved railways in the UK, perhaps Eastern Europe, but not Cuba, China, etc. Our industry suffers now from decades of just keeping them together with bailing wire and duct tape - no point not teaching some quality while we are at it.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> IMO, the industry "gets by" today
> mostly because of the small cadre of people
> who are willing to do the work and put in
> the hours more for love of the work than for
> the money. The trouble is, in most cases the
> love of the work doesn't go very far at the
> grocery store.

I must agree with these thoughts on the industry.

While focusing a need for new rail preservation experts is admirable, our organizations need additional personnel to perform, too often ignored, administrative duties. As a result, our efforts should focus on creating a generic volunteer friendly environment. How easy is it for a new person to join our activities? Does our existing volunteers have the necessary resources to perform the work? How do we recognize our volunteers for the work performed, no matter what the task?

While I agree with the need for future "trade" expertise to sustain our equipment, we will need an even broader spectrum of support to sustain our organizations. Creating an volunteer friendly environment is a good starting point.

Please understand I was just kidding. Really though, the conditions railway workers face in China probably aren't much better (and in some ways are worse) than my great grandfather faced at the turn of the century. In that respect, it could be a true trip back in time.

ryarger@rypn.org

I started reading the TRAINS article last night. Railfan had a similar piece. I rarely read Railfan these days, but the cover got my attention.

Anyway, TRAINS seemed overly excited. With the possible exception of the OC, these events in the "Revolution" were all extra-fare charters made possible by roads that have other income sources: regular excursions.

That's not to take away anything from the charters. I wish I was on them! But, those kinds of events don't pay the bills day in and day out. So, proclaiming it a "revolution" seems a bit crazy. My headline? A Gaggle of Talented Photographers Put a lot of Money, Time and Effort into Making the Best of What's Out There.

And there is nothing wrong with that, except calling it a revolutuion. In a revolution, something major changes.

EBT and the C&TS are still in dire need of investment, the other roads are still finding their way, and Strasburg continues to set the bar. Nothing changed during the revolution. That's not a revolution in my book.

But it was a really, really cool autumn.

Rob

Strasburg has attempted to find employees from the rail enthusiasts in the past to no avail. A notice on this board brought three responses, none of which worked out. The same post in a local paper brought over 70 responses. It is a puzzle to us. Granted we were looking for people with certain skills but it still surprised us that so few people were interested. We pay a lot more than minimum wage and have excellent benefits. Go figure.

Having read all of these posts, I must agree with Erik that a bigger problem may be funding our preservation efforts. The recent downturn in the tourist industry has hit us very hard and I know it has hit others as well.

Most business models that I have seen from consultants base their predictions of success on the entirely erroneous assumption that everyone wants to ride a train. When so many vendors of mainstream wares are competing for a finite amount of disposable income, it is pretty tough for special interest outfits like us to compete. For instance, the new Cabela's that opened in the middle of nowhere about an hour north of us, gets as many people on their busiest day as we get in July!

Sustainability is the key. Living within your means and not flooding the market with tourist railroads. A friend in the industry once told me that he got one train ride per vacation and it didn't matter which train it was. He felt this was pretty typical of the general public. There are only so many people who will pay money to ride a train. That number of people will support X-number of railroads. More railroads than that and you weaken all and it becomes survival of the fittest which is fine if you are one of the fittest. But sometimes our most historically valuable railroads are the weakest economically and when the market becomes saturated with "pop-up", "flash-in-the-pan" railroads we increase the risk of losing some worthwhile entities. I guess as long as everyone wants their own railroad to play on nothing will change.

We get all excited when a new railroad gets started. Personally, the WW&F really trips my trigger - really neat! For rail preservation, that is a battle won, but it's the war we have to win. Does winning any particular battle contribute to winning the war. That, in my opinion, is the question we are not asking. And if we did ask it, we probably wouldn't have the answer - I know I don't. I believe long term survivability means we better find that answer.

We are such a small industry that the regional impact area per railroad is quite large. Until we look at the big picture and find some reasonable way to "regulate" ourselves, survival is a more a matter of politics, personal agendas, and economics and less a matter of worthwhile historical preservation and overall health of the industry. Survival of the fittest has led to many extinctions.

Strasburg Rail Road
linnwm@supernet.com

Hey Linn-

Need a Curator/ Archivist with wood car maintenace/ resto experience and a working knowledge of at least the basics of steam operation? ;-)

TJ

> Strasburg has attempted to find employees
> from the rail enthusiasts in the past to no
> avail. A notice on this board brought three
> responses, none of which worked out. The
> same post in a local paper brought over 70
> responses. It is a puzzle to us. Granted we
> were looking for people with certain skills
> but it still surprised us that so few people
> were interested. We pay a lot more than
> minimum wage and have excellent benefits. Go
> figure.

> Having read all of these posts, I must agree
> with Erik that a bigger problem may be
> funding our preservation efforts. The recent
> downturn in the tourist industry has hit us
> very hard and I know it has hit others as
> well.

> Most business models that I have seen from
> consultants base their predictions of
> success on the entirely erroneous assumption
> that everyone wants to ride a train. When so
> many vendors of mainstream wares are
> competing for a finite amount of disposable
> income, it is pretty tough for special
> interest outfits like us to compete. For
> instance, the new Cabela's that opened in
> the middle of nowhere about an hour north of
> us, gets as many people on their busiest day
> as we get in July!

> Sustainability is the key. Living within
> your means and not flooding the market with
> tourist railroads. A friend in the industry
> once told me that he got one train ride per
> vacation and it didn't matter which train it
> was. He felt this was pretty typical of the
> general public. There are only so many
> people who will pay money to ride a train.
> That number of people will support X-number
> of railroads. More railroads than that and
> you weaken all and it becomes survival of
> the fittest which is fine if you are one of
> the fittest. But sometimes our most
> historically valuable railroads are the
> weakest economically and when the market
> becomes saturated with "pop-up",
> "flash-in-the-pan" railroads we
> increase the risk of losing some worthwhile
> entities. I guess as long as everyone wants
> their own railroad to play on nothing will
> change.

> We get all excited when a new railroad gets
> started. Personally, the WW&F really
> trips my trigger - really neat! For rail
> preservation, that is a battle won, but it's
> the war we have to win. Does winning any
> particular battle contribute to winning the
> war. That, in my opinion, is the question we
> are not asking. And if we did ask it, we
> probably wouldn't have the answer - I know I
> don't. I believe long term survivability
> means we better find that answer.

> We are such a small industry that the
> regional impact area per railroad is quite
> large. Until we look at the big picture and
> find some reasonable way to
> "regulate" ourselves, survival is
> a more a matter of politics, personal
> agendas, and economics and less a matter of
> worthwhile historical preservation and
> overall health of the industry. Survival of
> the fittest has led to many extinctions.


Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

> To get back to TJ's question, though, I
> think if we can come up with these or other
> business models, one thing they will do is
> throw off the resources (read money)
> necessary to train people in the specialized
> skills, in conjuntion with training they get
> from elsewhere in the general skills like
> machinist's training or welding or
> carpentry.

> To state my case another way--until we have
> a reliable long-term market into which to
> place graduates of the hypothetical steam
> trade school or program, how long could the
> program last, and how much good would it do?

Five years ago I was planning on leaving Amtrak after 14 years in OBS - tired of the public. I considered pursuing a Masters in Historic Preservation. Goucher College in Baltimore has such a program. After discussing the possibilities of working in railroad preservation at a decent salary with a variety of people I paid my $4,000 and got a reliable T&E job with CSX, and continued my RR retirement. I figure that I am doing a several things here by taking this route:

1) I add to my resume of railroad experience for future use if I become too decrepit to do the job until I'm 60 (the average RR retiree only lives 29 months after retiring);

2) I add to my photo collection a great deal of images taken on the job for future possible income from publishing;

3) I make enough money to enable me to do things like buy tickets on photo excursions and give to preservation projects;

4) Hopefully, when I retire I'll be in demand as a docent/engineer for a museum operation, like the B&O Museum, and I'll have enough retirement income that I won't have to drive a railroad taxi or be a greeter at Wal-Mart to make ends meet.

The sad fact is that jobs as paid staff at major railroad museums are few, far-between, subject to a lot of internal politics and drama, and not very renumerative. I hope to be able to contribute more after 60/30-and-out. Until then I just answer the phone when Jacksonville calls.

pww57@hotmail.com

> Strasburg has attempted to find employees
> from the rail enthusiasts in the past to no
> avail. A notice on this board brought three
> responses, none of which worked out. The
> same post in a local paper brought over 70
> responses. It is a puzzle to us. Granted we
> were looking for people with certain skills
> but it still surprised us that so few people
> were interested. We pay a lot more than
> minimum wage and have excellent benefits. Go
> figure.

> Most business models that I have seen from
> consultants base their predictions of
> success on the entirely erroneous assumption
> that everyone wants to ride a train.

I think that is the assumption behind 99% of the locomotive restoration/tourist railroad schemes out there now. And, it is a total fallacy. IMO, a lot of foamers lead very closeted lives, so much so that they are unable (or unwilling) to see this industry in proper perspective. That is, it is such a tiny part of the overall tourism and entertainment genre (far less than 1/2 of 1%)that it barely hits anyone's radar screen. BULLETIN: Trains are NOT a religion to everyone in the world!

But individuals and groups sit around and talk to each other and convince each other that what the world needs is one more steam engine or tourist line, and they usually point to another reasonably successful operation and try to pattern themselves after that one, even to the extent of locating as close to that one as possible. The result is 2 or more railroads selling essentially the same thing, both going after a total market share that usually only barely supports one operation, and cannot support two. The market and the interest just isn't there.

When one mainline engine gets restored and makes a trip, it's just a matter of minutes before groups spring up wanting to restore 2 or 3 more just like it and od the same thing on the same railroad. About all this does is drive the potential host railroad nuts, as they get very tired very quickly of hearing all the the grand proposals from people with no money, experience or market research.

> Sustainability is the key. Living within
> your means and not flooding the market with
> tourist railroads. A friend in the industry
> once told me that he got one train ride per
> vacation and it didn't matter which train it
> was. He felt this was pretty typical of the
> general public. There are only so many
> people who will pay money to ride a train.
> That number of people will support X-number
> of railroads. More railroads than that and
> you weaken all and it becomes survival of
> the fittest which is fine if you are one of
> the fittest. But sometimes our most
> historically valuable railroads are the
> weakest economically and when the market
> becomes saturated with "pop-up",
> "flash-in-the-pan" railroads we
> increase the risk of losing some worthwhile
> entities. I guess as long as everyone wants
> their own railroad to play on nothing will
> change.

> We get all excited when a new railroad gets
> started. Personally, the WW&F really
> trips my trigger - really neat! For rail
> preservation, that is a battle won, but it's
> the war we have to win. Does winning any
> particular battle contribute to winning the
> war. That, in my opinion, is the question we
> are not asking. And if we did ask it, we
> probably wouldn't have the answer - I know I
> don't. I believe long term survivability
> means we better find that answer.

> We are such a small industry that the
> regional impact area per railroad is quite
> large. Until we look at the big picture and
> find some reasonable way to
> "regulate" ourselves, survival is
> a more a matter of politics, personal
> agendas, and economics and less a matter of
> worthwhile historical preservation and
> overall health of the industry. Survival of
> the fittest has led to many extinctions.