> I knew you had to be 18 to be a member of a
> train crew ... I find it hard to believe
> absolutes anyhow ... but ANYONE ...???

I think the bigger issue is liability in the event of an injury to a volunteer worker. Each state has laws proscribing the age of an idividual's majority and his right to do stupid things (in spite of the fact that young men and women age 18 can launch bullets in Iraq to save the rest of us from that duty - God bless and support our troops!).

There may be an operating rule age limit by FRA but I seriously doubt they have any jurisdiction about who sells tickets or wields a paintbrush. But a legal minor who participates without the direct supervision of parent or legal guardian could spell trouble for the preservation organization in case of mishap.

Bob Kutella

68trolley@comcast.net

> I would love someone who knows the FRA regs
> that deal with minimum age to post here. I
> am only repeating what I was told by one of
> the managers of our RR museum. I hope he was
> wrong about the inflexibility of the rule
> about no under-18 persons being allowed to
> do any work at all.

After a quick but fairly thorough search through 49 CFR 200 series (FRA Regs) I conclude that the FRA itself does not have any rules governing the employment of minors in rail transportation. However, the Department of Labor does, as part of the regs implementing the Federal Fair Labor Stadards Act. The FLSA prohibits the employment of minors age 15 and under in "OCCUPATIONS IN CONNECTION WITH: TRANSPORTATION of persons or property by rail, highway, air, on water, pipeline, or other means." Minors age 17 and 18 may or not be permitted to participate in such occupations according to State labor laws. My impression based on a quick survey is that most states extend this ban to cover 17 and 18 year olds as well.

All this relates only to people engaged in Transportation--train and engine service, dispatching, and I would think maintenance of way as well.

The other poster is quite correct that general employment at a railroad museum in a non-transportation capacity will be covered by the labor laws of the U.S. Department of Labor and the individual state. I am sure there any many ways for minors to be involved in railway museums outside of the operating crafts in compliance with state laws--as gift show workers, food service workers, tour guides, library and archives helpers, and probably (with much tighter regulation) in the shop under supervision and in conformity with State and US Department of Labor law and regulations.

So I would say that if your museum colleague asserted that the FRA prohibits the participation of minors at a railroad museum in any capacity, he is not correct. To be broad minded, perhaps there was a semantic confusion and he really was talking only about train service. Even then, it's really the Department of Labor that would be the regulating authority not the FRA per se.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not an attorney and none of this informaiton should be taken as reliable legal guidance. Consult your own counsel.



eledbetter@rypn.org

I won't be an outright pessimist and say that our hobby is dying. I'll be a realist and just say it's downsizing--- greying out, to use another's description. The nostalgia for railroading past and the lackluster appeal of modern railroading just does not pull in sustaining numbers of new enthusiasts. Look at the numbers: everything from magazine subscriptions to membership rates to the financial viability of certain RR video producers, to name a few indicators. What do they indicate? Just a saturated market or a dying one?
One might counter that's the passive market of the hobby which is not thriving and not the active one in which volunteers or employees work hands on.
I think the 1990s were the last hurrah of the hobby. Overall it just isn't going to get any better. Traditional train travel has an appeal if it survives. Commuter rail transit is a potential bright spot. Some RR museums are going to rust away; others will survive and even thrive. Mainline steam is relatively moribund. The downward trend is still the same.
I think some groups will attract more dedicated enthusiasts who will keep the technology arts alive, but not near the numbers as in the past.
My advice: Enjoy whatever you fancy while you can!

P.S. How are the ranks of stagecoach, zeppelin, and steamship fans faring these days?

> P.S. How are the ranks of stagecoach,
> zeppelin, and steamship fans faring these
> days?

Can't say that he is ranks, but my brother-in-law is in the process of finishing a full-size Wells Fargo Stagecoach, based on measurements of the real artifact at the Iron Mission Museum in Cedar City Utah. Hubs and wheels were provided by the Amish in Pennsylvania.

His real interest is in wheelwrighting, wagonsmithing, etc. They're out there!!!

sc 'doc' lewis

Heber Valley Railroad
utweyesguy@aol.com

> Thanks, Mike!

> I would love someone who knows the FRA regs
> that deal with minimum age to post here. I
> am only repeating what I was told by one of
> the managers of our RR museum. I hope he was
> wrong about the inflexibility of the rule
> about no under-18 persons being allowed to
> do any work at all. After all, how are we
> going to pass on our knowledge if we have to
> discourage young people from helping us??

> The FRA has nationwide jurisdiction, so I
> would think that their rules would overrule
> those of any state department.

> I think that Railcamp is an excellent idea.
> I ve heard more than one adult say that they
> wished they could go!

> Margaret M.

I think one needs to be careful with the language here. A volunteer and employee have different legal meanings in many cases. When I asked an FRA official about my status, considering my age at the time of 14(in 1986), I was told that my situation did not apply as I was a volunteer and not an employee and therefor the rules on child labor did not apply. Liability issues aside, what attorney is going to press changes about a child volunteering in their community with the number of teen issues of today? I have a feeling the potential benefits to the child will out weigh the potential harm. If the child has a goal and determination, work in such an area could help keep the kid motivated.

My biggest area of concern is the level of experience with any volunteer. If the volunteer does not have a strong background with industrial issues then it is paramount that they get strong training in safety practices and are watched closely to ensure that good habits are developed. By teaming new volunteers with older hands, good working relationships and skill development can happen. This fellowship can create a stronger and more stable volunteer base for the organization to draw from.

Robby



epsw271@aol.com

> I think the bigger issue is liability in the
> event of an injury to a volunteer worker.
> Each state has laws proscribing the age of
> an idividual's majority and his right to do
> stupid things (in spite of the fact that
> young men and women age 18 can launch
> bullets in Iraq to save the rest of us from
> that duty - God bless and support our
> troops!).

> There may be an operating rule age limit by
> FRA but I seriously doubt they have any
> jurisdiction about who sells tickets or
> wields a paintbrush. But a legal minor who
> participates without the direct supervision
> of parent or legal guardian could spell
> trouble for the preservation organization in
> case of mishap.

> Bob Kutella

I have to agree with Bob. Our concession attendants are all ages 13 to 17 during the summer. Heber Valley Railroad has had an open door to volunteers of all ages since I started there 5 years ago. We have a few kids who have been volunteering since they were 12, and still come. One of the most successful programs we've done for volunteer work is lining up eagle scout projects. Most of the freight equipment in Heber has been repainted by prospective eagle scouts, their friends, and their families. Eagle scouts have also been responsible for weed control along the ROW, and we've even had two ex-DRGW boxcars delivered to the railroad through the efforts of an Eagle Scout project. It's a program that will continue to benefit the railroad for years to come, as long as there are plenty of these fine young boys looking for a good service project.

Keep in mind, that scouts have until their 18th birthday to complete their requirements for Eagle Scout. Most of the boys have averaged in age between 12 and 15.

- Mike Lewis


Heber Valley Railroad
dakota97@xmission.com

These are terrific comments, but many tend to focus on the negative! Most of us (myself included) have had our egos bruised and have been repeatedly discouraged by those "old heads" in rail preservation, who didn't want to waste time with the younger generation. Enough, already! It's time to move on without making the same mistakes, or using our own experience as an excuse for inaction.

We need to look for opportunities wherever they exist, and we are limited only by our own creativity. Sure, the "direct" transportation opportunities (e.g., crewing a train) may be out of reach to young people, but hands-on restoration opportunities exist for those willing to work within the boundaries of common sense and the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). Refer to Mike Lewis' posting regarding Eagle Scout projects. It takes effort to coordinate and execute meaningful service projects, but the results are good and the experiences leave a lasting impression with many of these young people.

A positive attitude demonstrated by railroad and museum officials, along with a smile, recognition for a job well done, and sincere thanks, will go a long way in getting young volunteers excited about coming back. John Rimmasch, with his enthusiasm and love for the industry, has led the charge in getting young people excited about steam trains, and about wanting to become part of what we do. There are other leaders in the industry with the same attitude, who will help to pass the torch to future generations.

Sure, funds are tight and the equipment (and many of us) are only getting older. Complaining about the problem won't help or change things, but rolling up our sleeves and getting to work will. We all recognize the problem . . . let's be part of the solution!

Craig H. Lacey
Executive Director
Heber Valley Historic Railroad Authority

Heber Valley Railroad
clacey@hebervalleyrr.org