Hi Folks
Gary Grey called me tonite and was telling me that the scrap dealer in Pulaski VA: Where there are two Saddle Tank Engines (one Baldwin and one Porter) and some Wooden Boxcars: is thinking about scrapping them soon.Gary's contact said the dealer will wait for a while to see if a preservation group can or would be willing to try to acquire the equipment. does any one have any Ideas or suggestions. or is there anybody that can be contacted who might be able to help.
The dealer is asking $18,000 each for the engines.

Andrew Martin
TWVRPS


amartin@wlu.edu

FYI: Links to more info about these locos, including a photo of each:

http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomo ... splay=1730

http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomo ... splay=1731

I would hate to see any steam scraped in the 21st century.

-Ed

American Viscose Co. No. 6
elecuyer@maptech.com

> The dealer is asking $18,000 each for the
> engines.

I'm sorry, but there is no way that those locomotives that kind of money. Scrap is only bringing a penny or two a pound. The big question is has the asbestos been removed from them? There is a significant cost to properly remove it. Add in the cost of cutting them up and there is very little profit, if any. Lets see, 60,000 lbs. times $.01 = $600 Even at 2 cents a pound its only $1200. Sell them for 15 times the value - He'd jump at the chance.

Martyhuck@aol.com

> I would hate to see any steam scraped in the 21st century.

Ed, I'm gonna disagree. In part because I do, in part because I want to see how others react.

Of the roughly 1,700 steam locos left in the USA, over 560 are 0-4-0 or 0-4-0t. One out of three, roughly. Wes Barris shows 75 (!) operational.

Are these two were somehow worthy of special recognition? Or would plopping them down in a "Museum" somewhere simply consume funds and volunteer-hours that would be better spent on the other 558 0-4-0s remaining, or the coaches, or the track, or the . . .

For that matter, do we really need 560 0-4-0s? Would we be better off if we scrapped 500 of them and used the funds on the other 60?

Just looking for reactions.

JAC

Hey John;

Well, as it takes roughly 100 0-4-0T's to equal the appeal of a modest ex. CNR 2-6-0, the numbers don't appear to be that badly off. ;-)

But, saying that, I know of a group fairly close in proximity to me that has chosen a small 0-4-0T as a "starter" restoration.

One can always agree or disagree, but the thought is that it is small, cheap, and good to make learn from does have merit. It can run just about anywhere; something that can't be said for larger locomotives.

I just hope they get around to something with more steam appeal before I die of old age! :-)

John Stewart
Ottawa, Canada.

> Of the roughly 1,700 steam locos left in the
> USA, over 560 are 0-4-0 or 0-4-0t. One out
> of three, roughly. Wes Barris shows 75 (!)
> operational.

Okay, fellow rabble-rouser...........

It's still a free country, and it's rather unlikely that any monies spent on these locos would have ended up being spent on, say, restoration of a steamer at the Va. Museum of Transportation or the Lost Engines of Roanoke. Maybe someone has always wanted their own steamer in their backyard. Maybe someone wants a steam chassis or two to kitbash their own 0-4-4-0. Heck, maybe the rebuild of Reading 1187 won't be feasible, and Strasburg will come knocking, looking for a different steamer to replace the 44-tonner! Yes, it's probably worth more in four digits than five, but it's the scrapper's right. Let the haggling begin!

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Marty - Thanks for the info. These engines are of interest to our new group, the Western Virginia RR Preservation Society, due to their local history and proximity to our core members. We had just started discussing them on our Yahoo group, and I was trying to gather some info on what a scrap value would be. Thanks for sharing your estimate with us. I was under the impression that 18K was a pie in the sky number. Good point also about the dreaded Asbestos. Judging by the pictures, if the saddle tanks are still on, it's probably still there.
We are also way to young to even really consider (dream about) any kind of equipment aquisition, but it's something to think about.

Mike
TWVRPS

Lets see, 60,000 lbs. times
> $.01 = $600 Even at 2 cents a pound its only
> $1200. Sell them for 15 times the value -
> He'd jump at the chance.


yenko117@yahoo.com

I am also of the opinion that since these are not much bigger than traction engines, they would make good projects for individuals or threshing groups or other smaller organizations that would not/could not tackle a larger engine.

Myself and I am sure others also get an occasional e-mail or phone call from a township or historical asking for a steam locomotive to place in front of their newly restored depot. While these will need some cosmetic restoration themselves, they are an ideal size to truck to such a location; and few will care they are just little industrial lokies and not shortline or mainline locomotives. Maybe even a casino or theme resteraunt or bar will take them. In fact, I need to dig through my inbox, and get back with a couple of folks who have asked recently.

Finally, once they are gone they are gone; and building replacements will cost even more than most groups can afford. We are already losing locomotives at the rate of one every year or so, to just let them go doesn't make sense to me.

I think 18K is tade bit high for even the two of them together; I hope the dealer is willing to negotiate.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> Ed, I'm gonna disagree. In part because I
> do, in part because I want to see how others
> react.

> Of the roughly 1,700 steam locos left in the
> USA, over 560 are 0-4-0 or 0-4-0t. One out
> of three, roughly. Wes Barris shows 75 (!)
> operational.

> Are these two were somehow worthy of special
> recognition? Or would plopping them down in
> a "Museum" somewhere simply
> consume funds and volunteer-hours that would
> be better spent on the other 558 0-4-0s
> remaining, or the coaches, or the track, or
> the . . .

> For that matter, do we really need 560
> 0-4-0s? Would we be better off if we
> scrapped 500 of them and used the funds on
> the other 60?

> Just looking for reactions.

> JAC


Surviving World Steam Project
james@survivingworldsteam.com

Well if money isn't an object.
I'd say yes save them with out a doubt.
One would look nice in front of the Depot at Pulaski with the N&W caboose.
One would look nice setting in Radford near where it once worked.
It would be neat to have one at the plant in Roanoke where they once worked....wait I am out of 0-4-0's

Any way from a historical stand point, I write these up as having history in the New River Valley and in Roanoke. I also noted that one is a Baldwin, how many Baldwin 0-4-0s are still around. (I've never studied these things carefully so I really don't know)

And they do make better decorations than a 2-8-4 that would surely take every thing a depot type group would have just to keep it painted.

But no, if they stand between saving a 4-8-0, i'll light the torch,
but if they can be saved to keep a 4-8-0 in a museum and away from a park.......

On the other hand 60 0-4-0s?
Ever wanted to feel what it was like to be around more than 2 hot locomotives at once?

sorry I am really day dreaming there...... too much school food

Ben

P.S. Any body know where I can find both Porter and Baldwin records to look up the construction numbers?


btrue@vt.edu

Guys, you all make good points - an individual or a tourist line can save one of these engines if it chooses to.

But the original post said "Preservation Group," and when I hear that I think "Museum," so I'm framing my question under that assumption.

(And a personal peeve - save us from saddletank pulling a Streamliner coach and caboose long a weedy, almost abandoned branch, and calling itself a "Museum of Railroading.")

Ben, you are right in that the locos have "a history in the New River Valley." So does every house, plow, ax, and duallie pickup truck climbing 460 right now. How does "having history" translate into "being worthy of becoming a museum piece?" Industrial Darwinism?

Final question: does anyone other than me find the "wooden boxcars" to have more value than the 0-4-0s?

Not intending to be argumentative or single anyone out. Just interested in the perspectives.

JAC

> Final question: does anyone other than me
> find the "wooden boxcars" to have
> more value than the 0-4-0s?

FYI I'm sending a friend of mine--who actually LIVES in Pulaski and never knew of these locos!--on a scouting mission to report back on the boxcars. Unfortunately she doesn't have a digital camera--yet (I may just send her one!). Before I do, is there anyone here that has firsthand knowledge about the boxcars?

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> How does "having history"
> translate into "being worthy of
> becoming a museum piece?" Industrial
> Darwinism?

With all due respect John, cause they are from here and belong here. I can comment as a resident of Southwest VA and say that people tend to have an affection for what is "thiers". We could regauge South African Beyer Garretts and run them over Cumbres Pass, cause they might be "better" than a K-36, but it's just not the same. Not everything that ran in the NRV was a Y-6. Even in the small town I live in, we had a 0-4-0 that ran into the 60's. While homely and not glamorous these represent a good portion of our rail history.
Speaking on my own and not as part of the Society, I'd like to see some/any steam operating in Southwest VA. Personally, I'd like it to be a 4-8-0. We might also have a good chance with the VC Canadian Pacifics, but if it came down to it, I wouldn't be opposed to a little 0-4-0 waddling down a weedy branch line with a gondola and a wood caboose.
Where to run plays into the equation as well. In our area, a small steamer most likely has as much of a chance or better running on a small branch line (C&W between Staunton and Pleasant Valley?) as the 611 or 1218 do running in their proper environs. They are safe and probably in the best holding pattern they could be, if steam is to ever return to NS tracks.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, those are my thoughts,

Mike

yenko117@yahoo.com

.............. wasn't there a serious proposal being floated by local government/tourism officials for a tourist-oriented excursion operation operating out of either Pulaski or Radford?

Can you say "opportunism"? Not that I blame the guy, but.........

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> Final question: does anyone other than me
> find the "wooden boxcars" to have
> more value than the 0-4-0s?

Yes, but even more than being just boxcars they are a camp train. I don't know exactly all that was in a camp train but 7 cars should be a good start to a full one. And yes there is a chance that they can be saved that's why I was there this morning taking pictures of them.

There was also an N&W passenger like car there (I use the word like for the simple reason that junk was stacked to the roof and all I could see was NORFOLK AND WESTERN, could have been RPO, combine, baggage etc. etc.)
unfortunatly we may never know because this morning all that was left was about 1/4 of the center sill.

Any way If any one wants to make a nearly complete camp train exhibit here's a good start, it'd need a lot of wood work but better than a single camp car.....



btrue@vt.edu

As to the locomotives significance.

The New River Valley is a highly industrialized area. And if some one ever did a museum of it with that interpretation of the NRV, those locomotives would have a more significant home in that museum then they would in any railroad museum.

Granted VMT has two NRV industrial locomotives preserved there. But I don't know of any others, at least not in the Commonwealth, I maybe wrong on this.

Now as to listing values, if was once again as simple as choosing. An authintic N&W camp train would proably be better than those specific locomotives, after all we can paint 'Radford Quarry" on any 0-4-0, it's a little harder to find composit box cars. but like I said, it's being looked in to.

Ben

btrue@vt.edu