I need a paint formula for Pullman Green. We attempted to come up with something last year, but several people have said the color we used is too light. I know nailing down Pullman Green is like loading live rabbits on a flatcar, but I'm willing to settle for something reasonably close. Any suggestions?

BTW, while I don't want to use "cheap" paint, I would like to keep the cost as low as possible.

Thanks!

The SCRM-List
scrmcurator@netzero.com

...it gets you 2250 messages if you search for it over the last year .....If I remember right we never really did decide!

lamontdc@adelphia.net

> ...it gets you 2250 messages if you search
> for it over the last year .....If I remember
> right we never really did decide!

It is one of any number of various shades of green paint subject to the interpretation of the individuals memory.

Buy a bottle of Floquil at the hobby shop, paint out a color card, and have the paint store match it. You won't be far wrong.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

We have a chip from the factory, as I recall, and I could share it with you.

Email me at Jim@sdrm.org

Pacific Southwest Ry Museum
Jim@sdrm.org

Here is what I have found on Pullman Green.

The first number I came up with was Dupont 5502 this is from C&NW passenger locomotive paint diagrams.

Dupont 5502 crosses to PPG 81649 This is the color and paint that I have used and it looks like Pullman green to me.

Now it gets fun. PPG 81649 does NOT cross back to Dupont 5502.

PPG 81649 crosses to Dupont 4558. Dupont calls this color Pullman Green.

Now you take Dupont 4558. It crosses to PPG 42791.

Then take PPG 42791 and you will come back to Dupont 4558

That is 4 color numbers that in theory should be the same color.

Tim


fltenwheeler@verizon.net

If you have a sample from your car, use that to get a match. Some location out of the weather and sunlight is the best place to look.

Some words of caution:

Many people call any olive green used on railroad passenger cars "Pullman Green." But several of the railroad companies had their own shade of green which was different from the color that the Pullman Company used. Reportedly there were also some changes in the shade of paint that the Pullman Company used.

Pullman used a dark color that reportedly changed appearance based upon the lighting conditions.

I have a hesitation with using a model color to develope a color for full size car, just as I would not use a "prototype" paint to paint a model. Distance from an object affects the appearance of a color. Also the lighting source affects the appearance of a color. Modelers need to take all of this into account when painting a model.

Matching and/or selecting a color shade can be difficult because you might be dealing with "faded paint and faded memories."

Brian Norden

> I need a paint formula for Pullman Green. We
> attempted to come up with something last
> year, but several people have said the color
> we used is too light.

> Thanks!

Matt,

You didn't say what equipment you are painting, but I have a color drift card for Atlantic Coast Line Pullman Green as the ACL used in 1955. It looks good to me on the car we just painted, and I'll be happy to loan it, or get you the formula for the paint we used. Contact me off list.

Stephen Syfrett
Albany, GA


ssyfrett@bellsouth.net

> Here is what I have found on Pullman Green.

> The first number I came up with was Dupont
> 5502 this is from C&NW passenger
> locomotive paint diagrams.

> Dupont 5502 crosses to PPG 81649 This is the
> color and paint that I have used and it
> looks like Pullman green to me.

> Now it gets fun. PPG 81649 does NOT cross
> back to Dupont 5502.

> PPG 81649 crosses to Dupont 4558. Dupont
> calls this color Pullman Green.

> Now you take Dupont 4558. It crosses to PPG
> 42791.

> Then take PPG 42791 and you will come back
> to Dupont 4558

> That is 4 color numbers that in theory
> should be the same color.

> Tim

Interesting listing. Thanks for posting it, it's gone into the files.

Perhaps the biggest difficulty in re-creating a particular color is that there is no perfect pitch for colors the way there is for musical notes.

How a color appears will change depending on its surroundings (the other colors in the background). There is also variation in hue and saturation from one paint batch to the next.

Another problem is that the good, color fast pigments used in things like Dulux 93-5502H are no longer available (specifically the 40D yellow, which is yellow chromate, or lead chromate). There are undoubtedly many formulations.

"Pullman green" can best be described as "dark olive green". You might try starting with a dark green olive and have a jobber match to that.

> You didn't say what equipment you are
> painting, but I have a color drift card for
> Atlantic Coast Line Pullman Green as the ACL
> used in 1955. It looks good to me on the car
> we just painted, and I'll be happy to loan
> it, or get you the formula for the paint we
> used. Contact me off list.

Much obliged to everyone who responded. We did a quick-and-dirty paint job on our Pullman "Bizet" to make it look like it's not a derelict The color is too light, although it'll pass until we do a real restoration on the car. Our SOU RPO and baggage car both need paint, as well. That's what I'm hunting for -- Southern's heavyweight passenger car color. It doesn't have to be exact -- I want it to be pretty close, but I don't mind a slight compromise in historic accuracy for practical considerations. As long as it looks right and holds up in the South Carolina sun, I'll be happy.

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@msmgmt.com

Pullman Green is many things. We have a copy of a masters thesis, "The Influence of Pullman: Railroad Passenger Coach Colors, 1900-1940" by Barbara J. Klobucar in the library at Steamtown NHS. Basically each railroad seemed to have its own variation. This thesis documented some of the railroads where the color could be documented.

Patrick McKnight
Historian, Steamtown NHS

pat_mcknight@nps.gov

> I need a paint formula for Pullman Green.

There is no one formula for "Pullman Green." Many different formulas were used. Supposedly Pullman would paint cars to match the railroad where they ran.

I have obtained an excellent color match with a very old protected paint sample on a railroad car using a mixture of raw umber and chrome yellow artists paints. I suspect these were the pigments originally used to create Pullman Green paint. If you or someone you know has a good eye for color, you probably can create a color sample card for your particular car that can be computer matched. It's kinda hard to take a railroad car into a paint store.

The new paint will not use chrome yellow (lead chromate) so probably will age differently from the original. I have seen modern paint turn blue in the sun.

Sign-painters paints are exempt from lead pigment regulations. That is a possible route to using the original pigment.

fkrock@pacbell.net

> Pullman Green is many things. We have a copy
> of a masters thesis, "The Influence of
> Pullman: Railroad Passenger Coach Colors,
> 1900-1940" by Barbara J. Klobucar in
> the library at Steamtown NHS. Basically each
> railroad seemed to have its own variation.
> This thesis documented some of the railroads
> where the color could be documented.

This was a master's thesis from what university, in what subject?

The thesis was done at Goucher College for a MA in historic preservation. Ms. Klobucar works in the restoration shop at Steamtown and I was the chair of her thesis committee. It is a pretty interesting work.

> This was a master's thesis from what
> university, in what subject?


pat_mcknight@nps.gov

> The thesis was done at Goucher College for a
> MA in historic preservation. Ms. Klobucar
> works in the restoration shop at Steamtown
> and I was the chair of her thesis committee.
> It is a pretty interesting work.

How do we go about getting a copy?
Thanks


Nevada Northern Railway Museum
nnry1@mwpower.net

I can ask the author of the thesis if she minds sending a photocopy or if she has a copy of her thesis on disk (probably CD-ROM). Though the finished copy of her thesis has a number of unique color cards actually cut and pasted onto the document showing the different shades.

Reply to me ( by e-mail at pat_mcknight@nps.gov)with a name and snail mail address and I will see what I can do.

Patrick McKnight
Historian, Steamtown NHS

> How do we go about getting a copy?
> Thanks


pat_mcknight@nps.gov