Gentlemen:

In your general experience in the preservation field, at what point does a group hit the critical mass to take off and successfully pursue preservation projects? I am an officer in a local NRHS group, but of the 30 odd local members the number of preservationists numbers three or four. Mind you, there are many great folk who don't mind the occasional rust scraping work session, but what I am looking for are those who think preservation of equipment is worthy of their time, attention and resources.

I realize that individual circumstances have a strong bearing on matters but is there any general formula that connects membership to group success, or is the matter linked to intangible items such as group leadership/personalities/etc?

I look forward to hearing your answers.

Great question, Mike, wish I had a good answer.

The members to workers ratio of one in 10 seems about the average. More can be motivated for "sexy special events" programming but 10 - 15% seems about what you can count on for getting work done.

Count on 100% to show up at membership meetings to tell you what you have done wrong and how you should have done it.

An attractive project and charasmatic leader helps. It may not be easy given the democratic / mob rule management structure of most of these organizations, but the buck should stop somewhere and decisions need to be made by a leader in a position of authority, and be sure that everybody won't agree with them all.

There is no critical mass, but if you know you can count on only 4 people on a frequent and reliable basis, look for meaningful projects that that many can do, and hope that your early, manageable victories will gain the interest of more so that larger projects can be considered.

Best wishes.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

Let me add to Brother Dave's response with one observation. Let's say you and 5 other members have toiled for a couple of years to get your steam locomotive restored to operation and fire up day has arrived. I can assure you that on fire up day, everyone who has a membership card will be there for a chance to ride on THEIR locomotive. Not to mention the retirees who will appear out of nowhere and offer to show you "how to run that thing". It's all part of the game.

Good luck with your endeavors.

G. Mark Ray - TVRM

aw90h@cs.com

> Gentlemen:

> In your general experience in the
> preservation field, at what point does a
> group hit the critical mass to take off and
> successfully pursue preservation projects? I
> am an officer in a local NRHS group, but of
> the 30 odd local members the number of
> preservationists numbers three or four. Mind
> you, there are many great folk who don't
> mind the occasional rust scraping work
> session, but what I am looking for are those
> who think preservation of equipment is
> worthy of their time, attention and
> resources.

> I realize that individual circumstances have
> a strong bearing on matters but is there any
> general formula that connects membership to
> group success, or is the matter linked to
> intangible items such as group
> leadership/personalities/etc?

> I look forward to hearing your answers.

Michael:

It's interesting that you have brought this up. I have seen some NRHS Annuals that have been published over the years and have always been impressed that quite a few NRHS Chapters own some type of railroad artifacts and seem to maintain them quite well! I don't know if your Chapter has some equipment at the present time or if you're only contemplating getting some, but I suggest you contact other NRHS Chapters that DO have equipment to see how they do it and how many members it takes to accomplish it.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley RR Museum)

midlandblb@cs.com

> The members to workers ratio of one in 10
> seems about the average. More can be
> motivated for "sexy special
> events" programming but 10 - 15% seems
> about what you can count on for getting work
> done.

> Count on 100% to show up at membership
> meetings to tell you what you have done
> wrong and how you should have done it.

> An attractive project and charasmatic leader
> helps. It may not be easy given the
> democratic / mob rule management structure
> of most of these organizations, but the buck
> should stop somewhere and decisions need to
> be made by a leader in a position of
> authority, and be sure that everybody won't
> agree with them all.

> There is no critical mass, but if you know
> you can count on only 4 people on a frequent
> and reliable basis, look for meaningful
> projects that that many can do, and hope
> that your early, manageable victories will
> gain the interest of more so that larger
> projects can be considered.

> Best wishes.

> Dave

Or you could solve alot of problems by taking the four or so active members, leaving your existing group, forming another entity with only the active people as members and then tackle the project. I have found that 90% of the work is accomplished by the hard core, and that the 10% provided by the rest isn't really worth the BS you have to put up with from the rest of the membership.

I have been a member of an NRHS group that was a group 0f 50 railfans who wanted to watch slides one evening a month. We tackled a preservation project, lost several of the members who thought we were not showing enough slides, and ended up with about a half dozen nearly burned out people working on the project every available day only to be given the fifth degree at the meetings by those who won't help and only wanted to watch slides in the first place.

Some groups have a good cohesive membership structure, others are hopeless. If you have a strong leader who is wiling to take the helm and lead the project, then you have the most valuable resource you could ever hope for. Preservation by non profit committee is most of the time a disaster.

Just my experience.


rickrailrd@aol.com

The numbers don't matter as much as:

1) the personality cults.

2) how many little hitlers you have hanging around, clamoring.

3) armchair groups are essentially escapist; they PROVIDE entertainment, like viewing slides and going on fan trips, an escape from the daily grind of job etc.

4) museum groups are anti-escapist; they TAKE a lot of hard, dirty work (like laying track or cleaning fireboxes) and don't provide the entertainment of 3). Those who join 3) type organizations do so to escape the onerous daily job grind, which category 4) falls into.

5) 3) and 4) are usually mutually incompatible, particuarly if they are divisions contained within the same club or orgainzation.

6) while I've always been a member of 4) my comments shouldn't be construed as unilaterally bashing 3) because many people do prefer to join 3) type organizations; that's their freedom of choice. However, whenever 3) types try to take over the show from 4) types, particularly when all the really hard work is done and the 3) types couldn't be bothered with doing any of it; then yes, I'm bashing the 3)s.

7) all orgainzations need some paper shufflers, but the paper shufflers don't clean the toilets. If the shufflers drive off the workers, they they have to shuffle the toilets themselves, or hire it done--which is difficult if the workers aren't running the trains to earn the revenues to pay for it.

I have been a bit surprised by the tone of this thread. Normally what I read here is constructive and helpful suggestions. I guess it's ok to vent a little especially when it's justified. I think it would be flattering that less active members would come out of the woodwork to claim ownership of the fruits of our efforts. After all, we are supposed to be preserving the stuff for those who follow. Some of them will want cab rides without having lifted a finger. Funding comes from the oddest sources (like people who won't lift a wire brush!)

wyld@oc-net.com

It takes all kinds-- but as anyone who has been in the trenches knows, it really takes money, almost more than anything else. And, if some "armchair" or "type 3" person is willing to write a check or checks (real money--not "I sent $25, why isn't ol' 759 running yet?" money), well then that person HAS contributed to the project. And, he or she is entitled to take some credit, just like the dirty-fingernails gang is.

What can be just as destructive as the "paper shufflers" looking down on the "dirty-fingernail guys", is the reverse-- BOTH skills are vital to the success of this thing we call "railroad preservation".

>I have an idea that is different from all of those shared thus far.

1.-It does not take money to get people out and there need not be a ton spent of Sexy stuff to get them out. I have worked this area of railroading and here is what I did. I like to give out bones! What is a Bone? A bone is something I have that somebody else wants that I can afford to get rid of.

This is the idea. Tell the guys that if they work 20 hours on the restoration of ????? whatever, they will get a cab ride. Interesting thought. A cab ride is free, everybody wants one and you have it in your hand as a bone! Now, make sure you pay when the work is done. 20 hours is a cab ride, make sure you make good on it.

2. I think there is a lot of wisdom in what has been said. You will always have "hot water" boys. When the water gets hot, here they come. The trick is, getting them to dope a rod or grab a rag while the water heats. As a leader, grab a rag, grab a few of your best BS'ers and wipe down the rods. Teach them that you can tell "war stories" That may have never happened anyway and wipe down a rod at the same time. It will kill you to see how many guys will dig in when they know that somebody will listen to them. That is all they want, like the slide showers, they just want to be heard.

So 3. Listen to them, let them tell you what you have done wrong ask them to be part of the soluntion then, the ball is in thier court with a rag in thier hand wiping down the engine that needs help or scrapping rust. You will find that once you have given out the bones, they will keep coming, they will always complain and the world will keep spinning......But, the stuff is getting done!

The key, leadership. Love the people into doing what you love doing - Working on preserving equipment!

Before I leave, I must say, I try hard to do all of this and sometimes I fall. Just get up and do it again.

Good luck

John E. Rimmasch
CMO HVRR

P.S. to those of you that donate time on the HVRR and there are many of you. I must say that our group is not the slide show group or the BS'ers or the compaliners. We are workers, very good ones I may add. Your group can be the same, if you make it that way!

It takes all kinds-- but as anyone who has
> been in the trenches knows, it really takes
> money, almost more than anything else. And,
> if some "armchair" or "type
> 3" person is willing to write a check
> or checks (real money--not "I sent $25,
> why isn't ol' 759 running yet?" money),
> well then that person HAS contributed to the
> project. And, he or she is entitled to take
> some credit, just like the dirty-fingernails
> gang is.

> What can be just as destructive as the
> "paper shufflers" looking down on
> the "dirty-fingernail guys", is
> the reverse-- BOTH skills are vital to the
> success of this thing we call "railroad
> preservation".


jrimmasch@yahoo.com

Mr. Rimmasch is much too modest about his program!

I started as a volunteer at HVRR in June 1999 and was handed a scraper to start working on the greasy/grime that covered the underside of GW75 as a result of storage in the sandpit over in Colorado. Some points ('bones' to pick?) that I might add about John's program.

1. Though at times there will be a single concentrated project for everyone to work on, at most every work session John has 4 or 5 "little" projects that can be worked on. So you might be working in a small team of 3-6 individuals or even by yourself on a smaller project--you can pick the project or team that you feel comfortable working with--using skills you possess or learning new skills from the others. It isn't unusual for John to greet you as you arrive by asking "Do you want to learn how to__________(fill in the blank) tonight?"

"BONE"= feeling you have something to contribute or something you can learn.

2. We don't work 'til we drop. John will call for a break after 2-3 hours. Sit around eat pizza (read 'shoot the bull')--then back to the projects for another hour or so.

"BONE"= a nice leisurely pace with little "burnout" -- you go home a satisfied kind of tired!

3. When the evening is done. Everyone stops and together the shop is cleaned, tools returned to their proper place, equipment shutdown, etc. IT IS CRITICAL TO THE MORALE (not to mention SAFETY) OF THE GROUP TO KEEP A CLEAN AND TIDY WORKPLACE!

"BONE"=reassurance of working in a safe environment.

4. There are times that the projects are ended early and John will take time to instruct that night's group on the basics of steam engine (or diesel) operation, concepts of air brake systems, proper hand signalling (day and night), etc.

"BONE"=learning or developing a skill for those in the group that are interested in moving on to become hostlers, brakemen, firemen, conductors.

5. John gets the word out through a newsletter that is sent to friends, volunteers and employees of the railroad (please email me or the railroad at the link below with your snail mail address if you would like a copy).
Note that no one likes to get a phone call the night before to learn that there's going to be a worknight. Take a moment to plan your worknights(days) 3-4 months out so that your group can plan their schedules around those dates--then hold to the schedule.

Does it work? HVRR has seen a few volunteers come and go but the average 'on the rolls' over the last two years has been just over 40. The average activity rate per event (work session) for the year 2000 was 37% with a total number of hours donated being over 3600 (this was up by more than 900 hours over the previous year 1999 and nine times the number of hours for 1997-98).

It takes thought, planning, and leadership by leaders that are right there scraping and painting with everyone else.

Thanks for the last two years John--I'm looking forward to the Olympics and many more years with HVRR.

'Doc' Lewis

Heber Valley Railroad Volunteer Program
utweyesguy@aol.com

It is nice to read some of the more heart warming success stories-although I am coming at this from another perspective.

I write this as a person whose (lifelong) interest in the subject was virtually demolished by a long-term exposure to one of these so-called preservation groups. In fact, I am speaking of a group in particular, who I will not name as I do not wish to embarass the principals-some of which contribute to this forum.

Perhaps the greatest shortcoming of amateur rail preservation groups is ineffectual management. I saw this first-hand...for a number of years. The leadership of this group was basically self-annointed and was allowed to lay waste to just about everything they touched. Why ?
Because they "outworked" everybody else-at least in terms of time spent. They filled a vacuum-and were allowed to operate unmolested-no matter what the cost was.

In this case, the cost was the loss of the core group of folks that had sustained the group over a decade. This nucleus had progressed well beyond the "scrape it and paint it" stage and was capable of some very sophisticated undertakings-given the lack of resources-facilities, money, tooling etc.

This loss did not happen overnight-every now and again, a person (with a very well-developed skillset) was alienated to the point of quitting and did so. In each and every case, the abuse they suffered took place over a long period of time. Nobody took the easy way out and quit right away-but as time passes, peoples needs change...and working hard for no pay is something one can easily do without.

The moral of the story is this: the folks who are allowed to be "managers" should be chosen on the same basis as if they were being hired for a salary. Think about it...



locosvcmgr@yahoo.com