> I know of 2 CLUBS in conn. going the same
> way. Why don't the people on the board do
> there job and stop this waste? bb

A rose is a rose is a rose, and a somewhat cloaked flame is still a flame--which we don't condone here on the Interchange. A reminder of our Guidelines and Rules:

"Constructive, polite criticism, and polite responses to same, are acceptable.

No flaming."

Criticism is welcome, but only if polite, and only if accompanied by constructive suggestions for improving or mitigating the concerns identified.


eledbetter@rypn.org

Just as the marketplace will rule when it comes to railroad museum patronage, this irrevocable set of economic laws also rules when an individual makes a decision about how to spend a scarce and valuable resource -- free time as measured in volunteer man/hours.

Railroad history preservation organizations, or any volunteer group for that matter, must offer an adequate ROI (Return On Investment). Otherwise, volunteer man/hours are exchanged somewhere else.

As a previous thoughtful contributor has noted, recruiting in an era of four railroads and closed depots is a major challenge to all. As we at TVRM have seen, hunting up new members is a time-consuming task. We are fortunate to have several bright young recruits who have that special gleam in their eyes, who love working with passengers and recent surveys show excel at customer service, and have maturity beyond their age.

Sadly, recruiting and adding value to a rail museum membership via member services often are not accorded the appropriate amount of resources. Left unattended, actuarial tables will result in museum closures and collection liquidation and disposal (as in, "Call the recycler.")

I don't have the specifics right at hand but there are organizations that will do visitor surveys.

Such things as where the person, family group, came from, how long they are planning to stay, how they found about the museum, railroad or whatever.

this not something you do on Thomas The Tank engine days, but it is for the regular walk in visitors.

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Is the fraternity of railroad museums the only one which insists that volunteers make the agenda? In the general museum community volunteers are certainly an important part of the operations but more in an auxiliary role. Railroad museums in particular seem to be membership based social clubs which have collections of trains on the side. Is that really the way to go?

I assume none of the crew has had a stroke or coronary thrombosis when they touched one of the modern tickets?

Seriously, great idea! Could you have Mr. Lewis contact me off-line concerning program particulars and results?

amiller@rtms-movietrains.com

> A rose is a rose is a rose, and a somewhat
> cloaked flame is still a flame--which we
> don't condone here on the Interchange. A
> reminder of our Guidelines and Rules:

> "Constructive, polite criticism, and
> polite responses to same, are acceptable.

> No flaming."

> Criticism is welcome, but only if polite,
> and only if accompanied by constructive
> suggestions for improving or mitigating the
> concerns identified.

Here we have a web site and discussion forum dedicated to preserving railroad stuff. It in itself is a child of the railroad presevation movement. On it, there have been voluminous postings and self-erudite discourses about Mission Statements, Collection Policies, Deaccessioning, Core Collections, Paid Professionals, ad nauseam (paper shuffling and pencil pushing).

However, once the discussion turns toward the other side of the coin, a concern for the safety of dedicated volunteerism, that very thing which built the museums and started the preservation movement in the first place, and concerns are voiced about what is perhaps the most pernicious and deadly development to these very museums: the Cult of the Personality and how it drives off the volunteers, enter the heavy hand of censorship

What everyone seems to lose sight of is that the railroad preservation movement started with volunteers collecting equipment and starting a "museum" (Seashore comes to mind here as the very first). There were no Mission Statements, Collection Policies, paper shufflers, nor pencil pushers, just a buch of guys who wanted to collect trains and preseve them, spending a tremendous amount of sweat equity in tending to their cars and locomotives.

I haven't seen any specific museums named, let alone people, yet enter the heavy hand of censorship. This is definitely a growing problem, and if we can't say so and identify it, open the topic for discusion, and develop solutions, it doesn't bode well for the future of all museums.

> Is the fraternity of railroad museums the
> only one which insists that volunteers make
> the agenda? In the general museum community
> volunteers are certainly an important part
> of the operations but more in an auxiliary
> role. Railroad museums in particular seem to
> be membership based social clubs which have
> collections of trains on the side. Is that
> really the way to go?

Interesting post.

It's been my experience that when one compares a volunteer museum to a railfan club which has no museum, it's the railfan club which is the "social orgainzation". It exists to supply the members with entertainment; the members are more or less passive. They get together to have a party: watch slide shows and movies, go on fan trips, etc.

In a volunteer museum, the collection of rr equipment is the main point. It takes a lot of hard work (building track, painting cars and locomotives, and other dirty and physcially difficult work). The members join to be active, to engage in physical work rather than "party". There is a lot of socializing in a museum organization, but this should not be confused with the passive "social clubbing" of fan trips and getting together to watch movies (etc).

If a preservation society (a museum) becomes a "railfan social club", it has lost its focus and the equipment will wither and die.

The volunteer railroad museum movement is the first one where the "common man" has taken an active interest in preserving and had the opporutinty to save our industrial heritage.

Yep, that seems to be the historical trend in many cases---but not all. Railfans got together for their common interest in railroads and saved railroad equipment and artifacts. The railroad-hobby organization served both a social purpose and a historical preservation purpose.
There's nothing wrong with the social side of rail organizations. That seems to be a common put-down levied by some critics. The main fault with the social side of railfan organizations having railroad collections (a museum, if you will) is shirking the responsibilty to take care of the stuff.
However, I 've seen the opposite happen. A coterie of "know-better-than-thou" individuals will purge the social organization to gain control and weed out members for any number of reasons. In the end, they get little accomplished in the way of preservation because they are too few in number and spend too much time and effort on the politics of just maintaining control.
I've heard the arguments against volunteers and railfan social clubs and in favor of professionally run museums. Fine. Just show me professional-acting management and better results. You can still have social component, a volunteer component, and a professional component if things work right.
Bottom-line, the origin of many RR collections is grassroots railfan efforts. Many aircraft museums are often no different.

> Railroad museums in particular seem to
> be membership based social clubs which have
> collections of trains on the side. Is that
> really the way to go?

By his question, I think Steamfan must have bumped into something unpleasant.

It is possible and, in fact, highly desireable for railroad museums to include some social activities. In a good museum, there is a mix of railroad history preservation and equipment restoration; train operations and its requisite training and certification programs; opportunities for interpretive and educational program development; physical exercise and intellectual challenges; and some old fashioned fellowship.

However, each element of what I call "the museum life experience" must be provided in proper balance. The program must allow for the flexibility necessary to fulfill each member's REASONABLE needs and expectations.

[Note the emphasis on the word "reasonable." Even too much lobster tail can make you sick.]

One thing I have noted about operating railroad museum social functions -- participants generally act like they highly value their carrier-issued certification cards. They are proud of the skill and accomplishment represented by "the ticket" and would not take a risk on loosing it.

See my post below on the economics of spare time. It adds further perspective to this important question.

amiller@rtms-movietrains.com

enter the heavy
> hand of censorship

Censorship implies that a topic has been banned or a post deleted. Neither has happened here.

Instead, I am simply reminding readers that the Guidlines and Rules for this board require that criticism be phrased politely and constructively, and that flaming is prohibited. Anyone new to the board can review the full Guidleines and Rules from the link at the top of the Interchange home page.

This is definitely a growing
> problem, and if we can't say so and identify
> it, open the topic for discusion, and
> develop solutions, it doesn't bode well for
> the future of all museums.

We can certainly discuss anything, identify it, and open topics for discussion--if we do so politely and constructively. That incudes volunteer vs. professional governance, which is certainly a subject we've debated vigorously in the past.

The key point: criticism is welcome, so long as it is polite, and is constructive; that is to say, accompanied by suggestions for improvement or for mitigating the concerns. We do not circumscribe topics, so long as they relate to railroad preservation. However, we do insist on courteous speech.

In four years moderating this board I have yet to see a criticism, no matter how serious, that is so grave it can only be expressed as an insult or flame, and is incapable of being expressed in a constructive statement.

Those are the rules of the house, folks.

eledbetter@rypn.org

> By his question, I think Steamfan must have
> bumped into something unpleasant.

Yes, the pontificator-clique mentality; BTDT in several organizations. Insecure, grasping individuals who try to validate their lives by hogging the spotlight and craving attention (worship and adoration in some cases). This is a danger in any organization, be it rail, airplane, ship, or the Elks. They tend to gravitate to established organizations, like fan trip clubs. What I was speaking about is the dangers of these types moving in and shoving the physical laboring types out of a museum.

> It is possible and, in fact, highly
> desireable for railroad museums to include
> some social activities. In a good museum,
> there is a mix of railroad history
> preservation and equipment restoration;
> train operations and its requisite training
> and certification programs; opportunities
> for interpretive and educational program
> development; physical exercise and
> intellectual challenges; and some old
> fashioned fellowship.

> However, each element of what I call
> "the museum life experience" must
> be provided in proper balance. The program
> must allow for the flexibility necessary to
> fulfill each member's REASONABLE needs and
> expectations.

> [Note the emphasis on the word
> "reasonable." Even too much
> lobster tail can make you sick.]

"Proper balance" and "reasonable" are the key elements. If one group or clique rules the roost, plays king of the box of toys to the disadvantage of others, then it damages the whole organization and seriously hampers its ability to keep up with the times.

> One thing I have noted about operating
> railroad museum social functions --
> participants generally act like they highly
> value their carrier-issued certification
> cards.

FWIW, museums like IRM, OERM, etc don't issue FRA-style certification cards. Short lines do, even to the volunteer participants, because they are required to do so.

>They are proud of the skill and
> accomplishment represented by "the
> ticket" and would not take a risk on
> loosing it.

Fan trip clubs and museums are based on two diametrically opposed mind sets: partying versus physical labor. Those who prefer partying do so because they want to be entertained, to escape the humdrum work environment of their daily lives. The physical labor types enjoy being tangibly constructive, the labor, a fundamentally different approach to recreation. By "physical labor", I also include the operators etc, all those who work in some fashion rather than hanging around for movies, fan trips, gossip, map/timetable fondling, and beverages (senior or junior grade).

There is nothing necessarily wrong with fan trip, party clubs, it just depends on what you want out of an organization. If you like fan trips etc., join that sort of a club. If you like to work on equipment and/or run it, join a museum. Mix the two at the museum's peril.

> Yes, the pontificator-clique mentality; BTDT
> in several organizations. Insecure, grasping
> individuals who try to validate their lives
> by hogging the spotlight and craving
> attention (worship and adoration in some
> cases). This is a danger in any
> organization, be it rail, airplane, ship, or
> the Elks. They tend to gravitate to
> established organizations, like fan trip
> clubs. What I was speaking about is the
> dangers of these types moving in and shoving
> the physical laboring types out of a museum.

> "Proper balance" and
> "reasonable" are the key elements.
> If one group or clique rules the roost,
> plays king of the box of toys to the
> disadvantage of others, then it damages the
> whole organization and seriously hampers its
> ability to keep up with the times.

> FWIW, museums like IRM, OERM, etc don't
> issue FRA-style certification cards. Short
> lines do, even to the volunteer
> participants, because they are required to
> do so.

> Fan trip clubs and museums are based on two
> diametrically opposed mind sets: partying
> versus physical labor. Those who prefer
> partying do so because they want to be
> entertained, to escape the humdrum work
> environment of their daily lives. The
> physical labor types enjoy being tangibly
> constructive, the labor, a fundamentally
> different approach to recreation. By
> "physical labor", I also include
> the operators etc, all those who work in
> some fashion rather than hanging around for
> movies, fan trips, gossip, map/timetable
> fondling, and beverages (senior or junior
> grade).

> There is nothing necessarily wrong with fan
> trip, party clubs, it just depends on what
> you want out of an organization. If you like
> fan trips etc., join that sort of a club. If
> you like to work on equipment and/or run it,
> join a museum. Mix the two at the museum's
> peril.
Thats just what I was trying to say at the start of this link. I think if telling it like it is is a flaming then thats censorship. IMO. The only way to stop cliques from taking over is to vote for directors who put a stop to it and not give in to the control freaks. Like in gov you get what you vote for. And if you don't vote you get what you deserve. And thats mo. not a flame. bb

> Thats just what I was trying to say at the
> start of this link. I think if telling it
> like it is is a flaming then thats
> censorship. IMO. The only way to stop
> cliques from taking over is to vote for
> directors who put a stop to it and not give
> in to the control freaks. Like in gov you
> get what you vote for. And if you don't vote
> you get what you deserve. And thats mo. not
> a flame. bb

Not flaming either, but what is the benefit of a democratically elected board of popularity contest winners relative to a benevolent dictatorship such as personified in Mr Levin's organization? It seems easy to determine which structure and style gets the most done with the least hassle the fastest and cheapest to me.

Having worked for public sector, private nonprofit and private for profit I like the for profits best. The buck stops somewhere and it doesn't matter who thinks what - the guy writing the checks prevails. Saves tons of wasted effort in politics, and renders personal satisfaction a benefit not a requirement.

dave


irondave@bellsouth.net

There is an important and powerful force operating in the railroad museum world AND in the proposed railroad-based social club that has not surfaced in this interesting discussion. (This discussion assumes that your segmentation of the railroad preservation world is both correct and inclusive.)

It is The Marketplace.

Whatever is done in either group, the capital requirements of railroad preservation efforts required that these groups offer the general public something of value. Unless there happens to be a filthy rich benefactor, revenues from outside the organization are essential.

Luckily, I have not been around a full-blown clique controlled organization (hereinafter CCO). From a distance, I have witnessed some organizations self destruct, implode, or otherwise have the wheels come off. Sadly, though, it sounds as though some significant number of railroad preservationists have encountered and personally endured unseemly situations.

There is no guarantee that CCOs cannot form. However, their strategic viability also is threatened unless they offer something of value to another important consumer group -- their members.

As noted below in an earlier post of mine, individuals have the right to decide how to spend their volunteer man-hours. Unless there are benefits accruing to members / volunteers, the marketplace will cause these individuals to go elsewhere with their time and efforts. And when you vote with your man / hours, be sure to take with you the wisdom of your previous unsavory experiences and in a gentlemanly fashion apply them to help craft the mission, goals, and objectives of your new environs.

The Marketplace is seldom a perfect disciplinary force. But over time, its effects ARE both undeniable and inevitable. Just ask the leaders of some CCOs who wake up one day and realize their members are gone, the toys are rusting, and they are in charge of a one-car parade.

amiller@rtms-movietrains.com

> It is The Marketplace.

> Whatever is done in either group, the
capital requirements of railroad
preservation efforts required that these
groups offer the general public something of
value. Unless there happens to be a filthy
rich benefactor, revenues from outside the
organization are essential.

Hows about a totally non-railroad method of raising money that 97% percent of the members DO NOT SUPPORT. It doesn't make any difference if the crew outnumbers the passengers or there aren't enough folks to do any maintenance work or the membership is constantly dropping, the "club" is sailing along in fine fettle. The attitude is "build it and they will ride", the outfit is a much needed natural magnet for the area and does not need any advice from outsiders!

> The Marketplace is seldom a perfect
disciplinary force. But over time, its
Just ask the leaders of some CCOs who wake
up one day and realize their members are
gone, the toys are rusting, and they are in
charge of a one-car parade.

Just enough folks gather for a mutual admiration society ... with no real future ....


lamontdc@adelphia.net