The second national steam conference was organized by Indian Rail Steam
Society at National Rail Museum, Delhi on 14th February.Held on Valentine's
day, around 110 rail enthusiasts took out time to talk and share notes about
their first love-Steam railway.Most of the participants were rail men, some
retired , some in service. Two IRFCANs-Ropesh and myself attended the
conference.

The conference began with welcome address by president, ISRS Mr..R.C.Sethi
who highlighted the major achievements in steam preservation since the last
conference organized in Dec'2002.He said around 300 steam locos are still
available in the country of which 100 could be commissioned.

Mr..T.K.Biswas, additional member, mechanical, Railway board said a Garat
loco is soon to be commissioned by NE railway.He stressed the need for a
website for inventory and suppliers of components for the steam locomotives.

Mr..P.N.Garg,member mechanical,railway board highlighted the steps taken for
preservation of steam.He said that Amritsar workshop and Golden Rock
workshop were being readied to repair steam locos. A B class loco for DHR
has been made at Golden Rock workshop costing only 1.7 crores.. He said that
the cost of similar loco received after tender floated by IR was 12 crores.
Steam miniatures will be manufactured at Amritsar workshop.A WG steam
miniature has already been made. Plans of "Thomason" engine, the first on IR
are now available and a miniature motorized version of it is to be
manufactured at Amritsar. Incidentally Thomason, a 4' 8-1/2" gauge steam
loco started work in 1851 during construction of Solani aqueduct 30 miles
north east of Delhi.

Ms.Rathi Vinay Jha, secretary, ministry of tourism suggested short haul
tourist trains. She said that journey should end as destination for tourist
to spend money and time. She stressed upon the role of IR in capturing the
magic of rail travel.

After this Mr..Rob Dickinson delivered his keynote address. He made a very
interesting presentation of images of Indian steam from Burdwan,
Santragachi, Asansol, Delhi, Bandel, Junagadh, Mehsana, Madras,
Secunderabad, Jullandhar, Darbhanga and Udaipur.He stressed that not only
steam locos but even signal cabins need to be preserved. He lamented the
fact that no WG steam loco has been preserved so far. He then made a
presentation of images of steam from UK,Indonesia, China, Burma, Cambodia,
Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, North Korea and Gautemala.

After this Mr..G.Shankar, secretary, ISRS proposed the vote of thanks.

After lunch, the first technical session was chaired by Mr..S.Dasarathy, ex
member, mechanical, railway board. The other two panelists were
Mr..V.Anand-GM,Southern railway and Mr..R.R.Bhandari, GM SE
railway.Mr..V.Anand highlighted the achievement of Southern Railway in
preserving steam. The SR now has single coupled steam loco on it's emblem.He
said X-Class loco (37395) was recently modified to oil fired. Also a B class
loco named Himrathi has been manufactured at Golden Rock workshop.He also
made a presentation on steam heritage runs organized by SR.A museum has been
established at ICF,Perambur. There are plans to have a light and sound show
centered around the loco plinted there.In the end he made a passionate plea
to double the efforts to declare NMR as world heritage site. Otherwise he
said there is every possibility of electric traction replacing steam.
Mr..Bhandari made a presentation on evolution of steam in India.Mr..
Dasarathy said it is imperative to catch the imagination of people.In this
regard he said even simple things like blowing whistle and steaming up the
plinthed loco, as is currently done at Jodhpur station, catches the fancy of
common man.

The second technical session was chaired by Mr..D.P.Tripathy, ex secretary,
Railway board.Mr..G.Shankar and Mr..Ashwani Lohani were the other two
panelists. Mr..Lohani has been ex-director of NRM.It was during his tenure
that fairy queen was restored and commercial package to sariska began. He is
currently EDPG to minister of state for railways. He has been nominated by
railways as nodal officer for all steam action in India.He announced that
Delhi-Farukhnagar steam run would soon commence. Two steam locos would do
shunting duties at Jaipur and New delhi station.He said efforts were on to
revive the "Express" at Jamalpur.

The third and last session was chaired by Mr..C.M.Khosla who stressed the
need to treat steam tourism as business venture.One of the panelists
Mr..K.B.Sankaran narrated an incident involving presidential saloon when a
dictat was passed that only steam locos were to be used for hauling the
saloon as they were more reliable than diesel!.He said steam tourism can
succeed only if local tourist is roped in too. Mr..Ranjit Mathur stressed
the need to separately rum DHR as a sustainable venture under the guidance
of Railway board.

The conference ended with Mr..Sethi proposing vote of thanks.

Earlier during the day we had opportunity to see miniature of Patiala Stem
Monorail Train run in its full glory.

N.B: All the presentations including that of Rob are being complied by
Mr..Ashwani. I will be getting a copy in a day or two.In case anyone is
interested he can contact me offline.


newhaven0401-NOSPAM-@verizon.net

Some photos of the new steam locomotive (no. 1001) built at Golden Rock for the DHR recently surfaced at the Indian Railways Fan Club (IRFCA) website (see the link below). Discussions have been on-going on the DHR and IRFCA groups at Yahoo.

Existing Class B locomotive No. 787 has been converted to oil firing. Experiments with 787 started in 2002 (?) using a home-brewed oil firing system. The original system used two small diesel engines, one driving a combustion air fan, the other driving an oil pump. This arrangement has now been "simplified" via a small diesel generator which powers an electric combustion air blower, an electric feedwater pump, dual electric air compressors, and an oil pump. The system uses multiple oil burners, and the locomotive cab now has almost as many switches and lights as the Space Shuttle. The new equipment is mounted behind louvered panels where the coal bunkers used to be, which makes the locomotive look an awful lot like a diseasal. To add insult to injury, two HUGE air reservoirs have been installed on top of the locomotive's saddle tank.

New DHR locomotive no. 1001 looks virtually identical to 787, apart from a headlight which looks like it belongs on a bicycle. According to posts on the DHR and IRFCA Yahoo groups, 787 was recently sent to the DHR for test runs which did NOT go well. It is expected that the locomotive will be sent back to Golden Rock for modifications, which will then have to be tested, and once proved, carried over to no. 1001. No. 1001 evidently has not left the shops yet.

The oil-fired X class rack/adhesion locomotive on the Nilgiri Railway appears to use a similar oil-firing system, as it now features a ventilated coal bunker which houses a diesel generator. This locomotive is evidently working satisfactorily as it is pulling trains up the mountain.

India Rail had advertised a Request for Proposals for new steam locomotives for both lines several years ago, and Swiss steam builder DLM had tried hard to sell them new state-of-the-art oil fired steamers along the lines of the ones built for Switzerland and Austria in the 1990's, but retaining the appearance of the existing steamers. Several other groups made proposals for new steamers as well, but all were considered too expensive by IR. Last year, it was announced that the contract had been awarded to Golden Rock for 3 new locomotives for the DHR.

India is certainly capable of building good steam locomotives; they have built all kinds up to and including broad gauge 4-6-2's. Unfortunately, the new DHR locomotive appears to be a virtual copy of the old 1890 design engines with a "Rube Goldburg" oil firing system which is bound to be unreliable if it can be made to work at all.

There are many people who would be willing to lend their expertise on proven oil firing systems for little or no cost. Hopefully, IR will seek outside help rather than giving up on steam.

Good Steaming,
Hugh Odom
The Ultimate Steam Page
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp

> Mr..P.N.Garg,member mechanical,railway board
> highlighted the steps taken for
> preservation of steam.He said that Amritsar
> workshop and Golden Rock
> workshop were being readied to repair steam
> locos. A B class loco for DHR
> has been made at Golden Rock workshop
> costing only 1.7 crores.. He said that
> the cost of similar loco received after
> tender floated by IR was 12 crores.
> After lunch, the first technical session was
> chaired by Mr..S.Dasarathy, ex
> member, mechanical, railway board. The other
> two panelists were
> Mr..V.Anand-GM,Southern railway and
> Mr..R.R.Bhandari, GM SE
> railway.Mr..V.Anand highlighted the
> achievement of Southern Railway in
> preserving steam. The SR now has single
> coupled steam loco on it's emblem.He
> said X-Class loco (37395) was recently
> modified to oil fired. Also a B class
> loco named Himrathi has been manufactured at
> Golden Rock workshop.

India Rail Golden Rock Workshop Photos
whodom2001@yahoo.com

No Message

Have they never heard of a good, old fashioned steam blown slobber burner? Are they trying to do some weird experiment with "smokeless" oil firing? I can't imagine what they are trying to do.

What is the madness behind an electric feed water system? Surely in a country of a jillion folks they can find someone to use an oil valve to keep the stack clean and run an injector.

This may not be an easily swallowed opinion, so be forwarned.

It is my opinion, and only an opinion, that it is not is our best interests, on the global level, to burn oil in steam locomotives -- I am especially concerned with recent and future conversions to oil. We are facing a global crisis on oil, and a crisis that goes much deeper than the price-at-the-pump touchstone we are used to in the United States.

All Mad Max jokes aside, there is a very real and very scary day coming when oil is going to scarce. With the steam locomotive, we have the unique opportunity operate fossil fuel-powered machinery that is not beholden to oil. Given the fact that we have an opportunity to choose, I would hope that we choose coal (or wood).

Rob

Good questions. My guess is that this conversion was attempted by engineers with no steam locomotive experience that knew how stationary boilers are typically fired and tried to carry this over to a locomotive, using standard off-the-shelf components. I guess they figured as long as they were generating electricity, they might as well run everything on the locomotive with it.

I saw photos of a similar oil conversion job on an SY 2-8-2 in China a few years back. Seems like it had four (yes, 4!) separate centrifugal blowers mounted on the pilot deck. I can't imagine it worked very well either.

There are plenty of people here, in the UK, and elsewhere in the world that know how to make a steam locomotive burn oil successfully without all this paraphernalia. Hopefully, the folks at the Golden Rock shop will talk to some of them before they go any further with these monstrosities.

The Ultimate Steam Page
whodom2001@yahoo.com

Rob,

Well, coal definitely smells better for one thing. The trouble is, even in India, labor costs are significant and they believe the labor savings from burning oil will more than offset the increased cost of fuel. Another problem is that the quality of available coal is much worse than it used to be- either the skill or the will to provide the right stuff just isn't there. This is also a problem in the UK and may eventually be a problem here.

You are right that steam locomotives are not beholden to oil. In fact, they can burn pretty much anything, meaning that they have a unique capability to use renewable fuel, such as wood, bagasse, refuse, etc. L. D. Porta pushed this point in many of his last steam technical papers as a significant reason to use steam motive power, especially in Third World countries.

I guess unfortunately oil will have to get a lot pricier or scarcer before anyone seriously considers this.

The Ultimate Steam Page
whodom2001@yahoo.com

You're not the only one, but there are not many of us who see the long term implications.

> It is my opinion, and only an opinion, that
> it is not is our best interests, on the
> global level, to burn oil in steam
> locomotives --

It's a fact, not just your opinion. However thinking on the global level is not something the government or the petro-auto cartel is capable of.

> We are facing a global crisis on oil, and a
> crisis that goes much deeper than the
> price-at-the-pump touchstone we are used to
> in the United States.

The governments in North America keep gasoline cheap because the so called 'health' of the economy is based on cheap gas, cheap disposable cars, and fast food at every corner. If the real price of fuel [like in Europe] was the case, then we would see all sorts of new technologies and higher efficiencies available.

> All Mad Max jokes aside, there is a very
> real and very scary day coming when oil is
> going to scarce. With the steam locomotive,
> we have the unique opportunity operate
> fossil fuel-powered machinery that is not
> beholden to oil. Given the fact that we have
> an opportunity to choose, I would hope that
> we choose coal (or wood).

Don't hold your breath. Governments would rather keep the short term status quo [it buys votes] rather than taking a long term global view.

The most realistic estimate of the future I've seen is that this century will be the last century -- in reverse. That's one of the reasons it's so very important that we keep steam technology alive. Our great-grandkinds will depend on it.

Mike


mike211@yknet.ca

No Rob, you're not the only one. In general it's stupid to be using oil as a fuel. It's too valuable a resource to burn in cars and furnaces. We need oil to make plastics, fertilizers, lubricants and pharmaceutical products. Most geologists agree we are within 1-10 years from the “peak” of global oil production. If you’re really interested in the subject get a copy of Hubert’s Peak.

> Most geologists agree we are
> within 1-10 years from the “peak” of global
> oil production.

We already crested a peak of sorts in 2000. Since then we have been consuming oil at a greater rate than we're finding it.

mike211@yknet.ca

As much as I dislike the idea that we sacrifice our national output to a cartel that directs those moneys into "schools" for terrorists and other things that aren't in our best interests-(so bring on the hydrogen economy)....

We aren't going to run out of oil. Assuming governments let the market operate, when supply goes down relative to demand, prices rise. When prices rise, there are reductions in consumption from both "income" and "substitution" effects. Cartels are terribly difficult to maintain over "the long run".

As such, long before we've sucked the last drop from the ground, we will reduce our consumption from both a need to conserve our income and by things that suddenly become attractive substitutes.

Microsoft's antics have made Openoffice a viable alternative, for example. As we speak, the decades long Debeers cartel is being challenged by Canadian diamond mining and an active effort to produce jewelry grade synthetic diamonds. On the energy front, there's hydrogen, fuel cells, biomass etc.

Of course this happens only so long as we recognize that rising prices-though painful and disruptive in the short run-are the impetus for change.

In short, if candidate speaks of price controls-think of him/her as the pied piper...

Corn oil diesel anyone?????



Superheater@rrmail.com

We will never run out of oil --- but we will run out of cheap oil and that's the problem. Oil is really a liquid gold --- it stores well, is cheaply recovered and has a high energy density. There's nothing like it out there. When we run out of cheap energy our lifestyles will change significantly --- and it may not be so bad. I think there will be more townlike settlements that don't require a car to survive. Where you can walk to work, store etc. Right now we don't use biomass, solar, fuel cells etc because they are more expensive than oil --- well go figure, these energy sources aren't magically gonna get cheaper as oil prices rise. Why? Because the buildings that heat them, the trains that ship them and the electricity that powers them will also increase because of rising oil prices. The problem with Econ 101 is that it's based upon the concept of unlimited resources --- which we don't have.

dmk166@yahoo.com

> We will never run out of oil --- but we will
> run out of cheap oil and that's the problem.

We have already run out of cheap oil. The government is spending $4 on military to secure every $1 of foreign oil. On top of that are billions of dollars of government subsidies to keep the price at the pump at only a fraction of the real cost of delivering it. Oil isn't cheap, we're just making up the difference with taxes.

If the government would stop dicking around with the basics of Econ 101, and let the principles of supply and demand put the price of fuel where it should be at 3x to 4x the current price, then we would see more people walking and riding bicycles, fuel efficient vehicles, efficient heating systems, and wind, solar and other renewable energy sources widely used. The real problem is that we need the oil that's being pissed away cheaply now to make those changes to a more fuel efficient economy. If we wait till its really scarce, then we might not have the energy available to make the transition.
Unfortunately government priorities are getting elected and staying in power, not doing what's best for the long term health of the society.

And yes it's relevant to this forum, because we should be getting steam engines back on line and fueling them with recycled crankcase oil and discard cooking oil from all those fast food joints. The best way to preserve a technology is to use it, not stick it in a museum or a park.

mike211@yknet.ca

> And yes it's relevant to this forum, because
> we should be getting steam engines back on
> line and fueling them with recycled
> crankcase oil and discard cooking oil from
> all those fast food joints. The best way to
> preserve a technology is to use it, not
> stick it in a museum or a park.

With respect, no, this conversation is no longer relvant to this forum at this point. Our ambit as set out in the Guidelines and Rules is as follows:

"The INTERCHANGE discussion board is intended to provide a forum for the discussion of relevant information about the successful operation of railroad history museums, railroad history groups, and other related organizations."

Present-day national energy policy can't really be shoehorned into that statement. I encourage the gentlemen to continue the conversation offline.


eledbetter@rypn.org