There has been some new discussion on "saving" the N&W 2-8-0 and three 4-8-0's at Roanoke and a question about the three former GTW 0-8-0's at Galt, Illinois. First of all, Richard Jenkins "Lost Engines of Roanoke" website reports that one of the GTW was recently sold by owner Illinois Railway Museum to a visitor center in Iowa (no apparent confirmation of this on the IRyM website.) Secondly, although it would be nice to save and possibly restore the N&W locomotives, the truth is that they are obviously in horrible shape. The fact that three of them are rare "Twelve-Wheeler" types, means an effort should at least be made. However, Bob Yargers BRIEFS report on the demise of the Bevier & Southern roundhouse touches on the remaining B&S steam locomotives and says that 2-6-0 #112 on display in Bevier is in poor shape. I have seen #112 and I agree that it is in poor shape BUT, here is an engine that apparently has all (or most) of its parts (unlike the 4-8-0's) and probably COULD be restored. PLUS, it is a 2-6-0 which is an ideal type (and size) for a tourist railroad or a museum with operational trackage. The people of the small town of Bevier apparently can't take care of this treasure (a fence around it is not the answer). If we are going to spend our preservation resources on restoration, is it not better to at least pick something where chances of success are at least better?

Comments welcome (but don't throw bricks!)

midlandblb@cs.com

I think the key is the definition of success for the preservation of an engine. If you define success as restoring an engine so that it can run, then maybe the 4 Roanoke engines can't be successes. However, if you define success as having the engine safe for future generations and preserved in a manner that they can be seen, then the Roanoke engines may be good canidates. Even if only one 4-8-0 and the 2-8-0 can be preserved, then that would be two one-of-a-kind engines saved for future generations. ( I don't think there are any other W class 2-8-0 around.) Both of these classes are very different from the other 4-8-0s and 2-8-0s left, I think this makes saving them extra important. But, given what I have heard about the scrap yard, it may be a long time before the disposition of these engines is decided.
However, I don't think this is either or proposition. Efforts should be made to save and keep up all steam engines that have survived with so few left.
Eric

e_lauterbach@yahoo.com

For those not aware from what I understand, the property is proposed for redevelopment. If this property does witness a change in owner, new opportunities could be brought up.

Thanks,
Gerald Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society


Heartland Railroad Historical Society
hrrhs@aol.com

Cities and scrapyards (and others too) never seem tom place any value on their steam locomotives until somebody else comes along and wants to preserve them.

Leaving aside the issue of the prospective saviors purity of heart and capabilties of effective action for the moment, the curent owners could, for relatively small expenditure, take some actions that would slow deterioration or protect from loss of hard to replace fittings and parts.

If it isn't worth $5000 of maintenence and protection, howcome it becomes a priceless artifact when a preservation proposal shows up?

I recently inspected a pair of Baldwin 2-8-0's in provate ownership which are offered for sale (sort of). The owner of these rusting hulks didn't even think enough of them to drop the ashes of the last fire or remove the asbestos before that became prohibitive in cost. He allowed the one bridge to connect their track to the accessible side of the creek to be torn out. These old quarry hogs were repaired and patched in every imaginable way except to mainline standards, all bolts are rusted tight, and aren't worth the cost of getting them to where they could be loaded out, yet he wants $50,000 each for them as is where is.

Certain brokers in railroad equipment tend to appraise their wares at higher than reasonable prices to get listings, and create a rosy scenario for the seller which is then not borne out as the stuff sits for years until somebody who is new to the field and doesn't know what things are worth makes an emotional decision and pays way too much for something. Only when they get into the project deeply do they realize the true cost.

Many railroad museums are also caught in the same situation so we should try to clean our own houses first. A mature, old line museum may have 20 pieces rusting away they can't afford to maintain but just wait until another museum approaches them with a plan and a budget and asks for a piece - you would think rust was suddenly transmuted to gold through some sort of alchemy.

If we don't begin to act more professional why should others follow suit?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Dave you are absolutely right. I saw the Baldwin 2-8-0s and also was suprised that for as much as the owner loved railroading, that he couldn't take the time to perform some minimal conservation of the locomotives. I would have scrapped that caboose and run the other engine up under the shed instead of leaving it out in the midst of a bunch of brush and trees.

Yes I have been a member of organizations that think their rusty, rotted piece of what used to be rolling stock is gold. There is a certain single sheathed 1920s wooden Pere Marquette boxcar that is still restorable that one group owns, but would not consider trading it to perhaps a group in Michigan to return it where it belongs. They would rather continue to dream about someday putting together an early 1900s trainset and watch it either fall in on itself or have vandals torch the car than admit that they are over their heads and do something logical.

Several years ago I was presented with an opportunity to preserve a very historic stationary steam engine, and from the BS that I encountered from the volunteer groups that I had been members of, I decided that the non profit that I formed to undertake the project would be a dictatorship. I make the decisions and you know what, we are half way toward reaching our goal, all the volunteers are happy campers and there is no BS anytime, anywhere. If we find something that is outside our pervue it is offered to a group that can preserve it. My days of sitting in meetings discussing for three hours the color of fan trip jerseys are OVER!

rickrailrd@aol.com

Right on, Dave!

gbry@innernet.net

I had recently lived and worked(railroad construction) in Roanoke.I am what may be called an optimist,or a dreamer depending on whose side your on.I believe the locomotives in the Virginia Scrap Metal and Iron Company lot can be saved.At least for display.
I have made an inspection of the tracks near-by and can say with confidence that the equipment can be removed from the scrapyard via rail. A splice into the neighbors track and about three hundred feet of track building are needed before NS can push in flatcars to load the equipment on.
Who will pay for this and where will the equipment go to? I don't know. I have met with local SW Virginans who are VERY interested in saving at least one of the locos. I think we all would like to see things develop on a positive note here, but no one knows where the money will come from. That is all it will take to get the locomotives off the scrap yard property. Money. The volunteers are all ready to help. With a few weeks notice,A good crew of workers and paid contractors can be on site and working.IT CAN BE DONE! It takes positive attitudes and real help,both physically and financially.
I advise everyone to go to the LINKS section of this website. Under "miscellanious" click on Lost Engines of Roanoke. Look for guestbook entries by Bryan Love. Here is one person who is TRYING to do something. I've met him and we've talked several times about the Scrap Yard locos. He can be reached via e-mail,and would be happy to talk with anyone willing to help with saving the locomotives.

btamper@hotmail.com

I think anyone who is familiar with the Roanoke engines and knows anything about the GTW 0-8-0's that miraculously survived the furnaces at Sterling, Ill., have thought that this was a chance to reach out and preserve something worthwhile. These are the last few survivors, saved only by uncanny twists of fate when the larger bretheran went into irretrievable history. It's a romantic notion, appealing and satisfying to think, "maybe I could save one and own it, protect it, be it's guardian". Faceing facts is a different deal. Unless the locomotives have been greased and closed up, they are likely to have collected water and puddles of rust grit. I agree that they should be preserved, but there are other fairly intact locomotives sitting in parks that should be saved for the same money. I am going down to Roanoke in February and will try to take some good pictures if I can get into the yard.

Regarding the GTW switchers, I have been told that they were given to IRM with the provision that they never run again. I don't know why, and it seem a shame, but as far as trade material is concerned, they've proven their worth already.

Steam locomotives are no longer scrap, but "antiques". Nothing should go to the torch in this day and age, but as I said before, the hard reality is that the preservation movement would have been more effectively served if it had begun around 1960. We live and learn, but sometimes we learn too late.


glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

> I think anyone who is familiar with the
> Roanoke engines and knows anything about the
> GTW 0-8-0's that miraculously survived the
> furnaces at Sterling, Ill., have thought
> that this was a chance to reach out and
> preserve something worthwhile. These are the
> last few survivors, saved only by uncanny
> twists of fate when the larger bretheran
> went into irretrievable history. It's a
> romantic notion, appealing and satisfying to
> think, "maybe I could save one and own
> it, protect it, be it's guardian".
> Faceing facts is a different deal. Unless
> the locomotives have been greased and closed
> up, they are likely to have collected water
> and puddles of rust grit. I agree that they
> should be preserved, but there are other
> fairly intact locomotives sitting in parks
> that should be saved for the same money. I
> am going down to Roanoke in February and
> will try to take some good pictures if I can
> get into the yard.

> Regarding the GTW switchers, I have been
> told that they were given to IRM with the
> provision that they never run again. I don't
> know why, and it seem a shame, but as far as
> trade material is concerned, they've proven
> their worth already.

> Steam locomotives are no longer scrap, but
> "antiques". Nothing should go to
> the torch in this day and age, but as I said
> before, the hard reality is that the
> preservation movement would have been more
> effectively served if it had begun around
> 1960. We live and learn, but sometimes we
> learn too late.

Don't forget that the IRM was considering cutting up the three 0-8-0's at Galt. And that there are two baldwins diesel switchers are with the 2-8-0's at Galt. A post from Rick Rowland's said that he had offered to purchase on of these engines for cosmitic display addressed to the IRM though they never responded.
Any of these engines can be used for at least some sort of cosmitic display, because despitre their advanced deterioration they can be restored, and they in my opnion worth restoring some time in the next few years before they become unreclamible. The only problem is that there will be many people to take pictures but perhaps very few people who have serious plans, and as long as their current owners are willing to coroparate. .


amtk_350@hotmail.com

Greetings,

I recall an individual from IRM posted on here at one time that the locomotives are available. If you have the money and wherewithal to accomplish your objective give them a call.

Thanks,
Gerald Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society

Heartland Railroad Historical Society
hrrhs@aol.com

> Don't forget that the IRM was considering
> cutting up the three 0-8-0's at Galt. And
> that there are two baldwins diesel switchers
> are with the 2-8-0's at Galt. A post from
> Rick Rowland's said that he had offered to
> purchase on of these engines for cosmitic
> display addressed to the IRM though they
> never responded.

That was a few years ago before we found our stationary steam engine. A few of us steam enthusiasts realized that we did not have anything in the area that represented steam power, and then I remembered the article in L&RP about the 0-8-0s. So I wrote IRM and never received a resonse. Shortly thereafter we found the Tod Engine and directed our efforts toward preserving it.

rickrailrd@aol.com

> Don't forget that the IRM was considering
> cutting up the three 0-8-0's at Galt. And
> that there are two baldwins diesel switchers
> are with the 2-8-0's at Galt. A post from
> Rick Rowland's said that he had offered to
> purchase on of these engines for cosmitic
> display addressed to the IRM though they
> never responded.
> Any of these engines can be used for at
> least some sort of cosmitic display, because
> despitre their advanced deterioration they
> can be restored, and they in my opnion worth
> restoring some time in the next few years
> before they become unreclamible. The only
> problem is that there will be many people to
> take pictures but perhaps very few people
> who have serious plans, and as long as their
> current owners are willing to coroparate. .
Kevin C. McCabe has responded here before on IRM's position on the Galt engines. There were actually several 0-8-0's that were donated to the IRM, and I believe that 8 of them were traded to a scrap yard for the CB&Q 2-8-2 4963 which had been in the scrap yard. Someone can correct me if I am wrong on the number, but I know that the cab and rear 18" of boiler of one of the scrapped 0-8-0's is outside behind the IRM steam shop and will eventually become a display on boiler construction. It has been posted before, but I am sure that the IRM will entertain any proposal regarding the remaining engines at Galt. I don't wish to stir up debate, but it sure seems a shame that they have been allowed to deteriorate to such an extent since their retirement in the early 80's.

SACarlso@scj.com