due to the high price of scrap and low world price of sugar, there have been 39 steam locomotives, presumed to mostly be American made Baldwins, scrapped in the last few months. According to our sources, many more are set to go.

> due to the high price of scrap and low world
> price of sugar, there have been 39 steam
> locomotives, presumed to mostly be American
> made Baldwins, scrapped in the last few
> months. According to our sources, many more
> are set to go.

*Anyone prepared to join up in an invasion of Cuba? I gots LOTS of junk automobiles here in town we could trade for steamers, so they could put gerbil-cage-belt propulsion in a new generation of automobiles........... <;-)


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

This is nothing short of tragic. I can understand the Cuban's motivation, with the price of scrap steel going through the roof. There is another problem here. As everyone on this board knows, our country's relations with Cuba are not good, and are unlikely to improve no matter who wins the next Presidential election.

That being said, is there anything that any of our Canadian or Mexican friends can do through their governments to help get a couple of the more significant pieces donated for preservation so that we could at lest get them back on the mainland? I'm thinking of a government to government cultural exchange like that between the Smithsonian and the Mexican government that resulted in the repatriation of the PA's.

Thoughts anyone?

kevin.r.gillespie@verizon.net

Most of us (NCTM included) are working hard for operating money right now that's in short supply due to increased costs and reduced visitation... going after new projects is real risky, darn near impossible.

Having said that: If anyone is able to latch onto ex-SR 2-6-0 2100 before she goes into the melting pot, I'm offering a cab ride, 10 lbs of pulled pork BBQ and a case of Cheerwine when she's sitting on the Spencer turntable...sigh.

http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

> That being said, is there anything that any
> of our Canadian or Mexican friends can do
> through their governments to help get a
> couple of the more significant pieces
> donated for preservation so that we could at
> lest get them back on the mainland? I'm
> thinking of a government to government
> cultural exchange like that between the
> Smithsonian and the Mexican government that
> resulted in the repatriation of the PA's.

Please realize that as of a couple of years ago, there were 500 steam locomotives on the island of Cuba. Cuba is already working to save the more significant pieces; the oldest working locomotive on the island, 0-4-2T #1112 (Baldwin/4502/1878) is hauling tourist trains. Next in age, 1882-built 0-4-2T #1107 and 0-6-0 #1180 are both stuffed and mounted on display.

Several have been moved to closed sugar mills that are being set aside as museums. Others that have not been reported in years are showing on plinthes around the island.

At the same time, I have 36 steam locomotives listed as derelict, 12 as dismantled, and 60 as dumped. Some of these most likely have been scrapped already, since they have not been reported in recent years. If some of the other engines in poorer condition are being scrapped, I think that is to be expected.

Now, if some of the locomotives already stuffed and mounted or set aside for preservation were instead scrapped; *that* would be bad news. But, one of the biggest economic forces on the island is tourism, and Cuba seems to recognize both the cultural and tourist potential of much of it's steam fleet. I think a reasonable, perhaps maybe even surprising number will be preserved in the end.

What I do hate to see go are the stationary engines and similiar equipment in the mills themselves; much less of it appears to have been preserved. But until I see a list of what locomotives have been scrapped so far, I think it is a bit early to sound the alarm bells. I do wish all of them can be saved; but as we discussed here recently, there are limits; and we will have to out-bid the scrappers and pay all of the middlemen to have them shipped to the United States. In addition, much of the fleet was poorly maintained; and in not much better condition than some of our park engines here in the U.S.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project
james@survivingworldsteam.com

I read somplace online a long time ago that there is/was a Grafton and Upton steam locomotive down there as well as a New York Ontarion and Western one. Boy, what I would give to get those two back home.

I have a photo of a BR&P 2-8-0 that was taken in the early 80s. It appeared to be derelict at that time. Would really really like to see that one repatriated.

JR

I have heard from a few sources that the NYO&W engine is little more then a pile of metal, but man would I love to be proved wrong.

Only 10 pounds of pulled pork Jim? I'd get that mogul to NC for 20, or even 15 but not for 10! :)

Joshua


joshua@joshuakblay.com

The Cubans are not stupid. They have made a very good dollar selling old automobile to collectors around the world. What the government needs to know is how much we rich Yanqui's are willing to fork over in hard currency to obtain their retired locomotives. The way to go is probably through Canada, rather than Mexico. The Canadians are not likely to gouge dollars out of us.


Aurora7@Juno.com

> I have a photo of a BR&P 2-8-0 that was
> taken in the early 80s. It appeared to be
> derelict at that time. Would really really
> like to see that one repatriated.

> JR

If you know the MINAZ number that was assigned, what mill it was at, and/or what it's builder and builder's number is, I can tell if it was spotted in the last ten years.

But if it was derelict in the 1980s, then it is probably gone now; some of the steam locomotives photographed in derelict condition by UK railway photographer Colin Garratt during the 1980s have not been reported in the 1990s. (I have heard the two derelict at the Felton Power Plant are gone; and some of the ex-United Fruit wrecks on the island are already gone.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project
james@survivingworldsteam.com

Ok, Josh, I'll up it to 20...your choice of Parkers in Wilson, Stamey's in Greensboro, Lexington No. 1, Gary's in China Grove (source of our Rail Days Saturday evening BBQ) Bridges in Shelby and Green River (mustard sauce influenced by closeness to S.C.).

http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

> This is nothing short of tragic. I can
> understand the Cuban's motivation, with the
> price of scrap steel going through the roof.
> There is another problem here. As everyone
> on this board knows, our country's relations
> with Cuba are not good, and are unlikely to
> improve no matter who wins the next
> Presidential election.

As much as this board is dedicated to RR preservation, lets not forget what (who) is the problem in Cuba.

For four decades one individual has turned what should be a small paradise into a wasteland and reduced a bright and industrious people into scavengers to maintain the ruthlessly enforced myth of the socialist paradise. Only a fawning idiot with all the sophistication of an awestruck schoolgirl like Barbara Walters or some assorted ninnies from Hollyweird would think of Castro as anything more than a "target of opportunity" to be eliminated.

The great tragedy of Cuba isn't the disappearance of the scraps of our exported industrial halcyon (when we still can't seem to persuade our own citizenry that the domestic reminders of the past matter, except for a tiny few)- Its the disappearance of PEOPLE who dare speak ill of the fuhrer, er leader.

Every field needs ethics- and I realize much of this thread is daydreaming-assuming we were actually capable of raising the money to repatriate a locomotive and then doing an end run around the embargo would be a crime against humanity if the proceeds supported this "government". In addition it would be a crime against this nation.

Finally, what about all the stuff that's ALREADY here and rotting in parks? What a waste to spend money to bring something back when it could be spent in preservation.

Lets be honest, outside a few engines that went there second-hand, whats in Cuba has little significance relative to what we can't take of now. Charity begins at home, folks.



superheater@rrmail.com

> Ok, Josh, I'll up it to 20...your choice of
> Parkers in Wilson,

I sure wish I had the resources to take you up on your offer Jim. While I was it I'd grab the former Naiperville Jct RS-2 too. When I was down south a year ago this past August, I made sure to have some pulled pork. Love it! We even have a local place up here in NY that comes close.

Anyone see the NRHS Bulletin on Cuba? Very good issue!

Joshua

joshua@joshuakblay.com

In all reality much of the steam in Cuba is worn out and seriously shot. If anyone wants to get serious and get some good operating locomotives here, they should go to China.

You can buy 2-10-2s, 2-8-2s and 4-6-2s. There are some 2-6-2s there also. A couples USA 2-8-0s are there also. Price would be reasonable and shipping around $7-9 grand to San Fran. (No UPS will not handle them).

These locos can be as young as built in 1989!!!. I was there in 1986 and they had 10,000 locos running then. They are down to about 2,000 operating now.

It would cost nearly as much to ship the junk from Cuba and that is what you would get. Do you want to operate your newly acquired loco or just plant one in your yard and watch it rust away there?

It is nice to dream. We can do that here in the good ole USA. But today the almighty dollar is king. No management wants to hear about something that cost money or doesn't make money.

Unfortunately the future here in the USA for the running of big steam on major Railroads is about non-existant. I hate to sound down on steam but I was involved with full size steam since 1964. Working on them and running them. Things have gotten worse every year since the Claytors died.

I have been involved in 1" scale live steam since 1971 and 6 years ago I have settled into 1&1/2 inch scale live steam. I can control the operation and ownership of steam. In all my years involved with steam this is the most rewarding its ever been. I can run them anywhere in the USA and whenever I want.

bgsberk@comcast.net