A few people have said that the J611 won't run again. I'm wondering why? Is it just NS or is there something major wrong with the engine itself? Just curious

Thanks

My Project
gnufe@apex.net

> A few people have said that the J611 won't
> run again. I'm wondering why? Is it just NS
> or is there something major wrong with the
> engine itself? Just curious

> Thanks

The engine would need to be resurveyed--flues pulled, new Form 4 calculated, CFR Part 233 compliance certified, etc. Doubtless a few other odds and ends would come up in the survey. Nothing money couldn't cure.

That said, it's still safe to say 611 won't be running for the forseeable future. The engine is owned by Virginia Museum of Transportation and they are unlikely to lease it except in the exceedingly unlikely event of some enormously reputable and well-heeled group coming by with an offer they can't refuse.

Assuming such a group were to appear out of thin air, where would they run it? Qulified excursion engines in the east are already largely hanger queens--due to insurance costs, lack of track capacity in the eastern network, lack of railroad managements interested in assuming the very real liabilites for a fairly dubious payoff, etc. and so on. In other words, it's not "just NS", its an entire confluence of very real circumstances.

In my opinion, its time to let go of the era of big mainline steam excursions (at least on the East Coast) and concentrate our efforts on building up sustainable operations where the climate is more favorable--at our museums and tourist lines. 611 has a safe home and an honorable retirement. If you want to restore big steam in the east, send your mony to support the rebuilding of PRR 1361 or B&M 3713 at Steamtown. There all the pieces are in place: a shop to do the work, coaches to run, right of way to run on, insurance in place, etc etc etc. And yet both groups live from hand to mouth, starving for funds. Go figure.

I don't mean to be snide, certainly not to Stuart whose honest question kicked off this rant, but I do grow weary of looking back and sniping at NS (or others) when we're not collectively fully funding and supporting the things we do have going right here, right now. In a sense, I'm not sure we "deserve" to have 611 back, or 1218, or 614, until we do a better job of supporting what we do have.

Sorry for the vehemence, I must have got up on the wrong side of the bed--but I do feel quite strongly about this.


eledbetter@mail.rypn.org

Stuart,

The biggest problem with J class #611 is that Norfolk Southern management wants no part of her back on the road. They didn't when they were making huge amounts of money, and with the difficulties they are having, a steam engine is the furthest thing from their mind.

Also, they dismantled their entire steam program infrastructure. All the tools and equipment were sold, some to preservation organizations, others to scrap dealers. They sold off almost all their coaches, and demolished the shop building in Birmingham. They wanted to make sure that steam could not easily make a comeback.

At the end of the NS steam program, her flue time was up. She would have to have her flues replaced, and other minor repairs. My hunch is that she will ultimately return, but not in the near future.


kevingillespie@usa.net

No problem, Erik,

Railfans are so clickish (spelling). Most all want to have their own trainsets, at least that's the way it is around here. I understand NS's reasoning behind the termination of the steam program. It's kinda like passenger trains in general. They were losing money and it's not good business to lose money. Holding someone responsible, when you know you could get hurt (liability) is a joke. People should take responsiblity for their actions, not sue someone else because of them and yes accidents do happen. Pr can be a great thing for a company though. So, I'll quit rambling.

I was curious about the J6, so thanks, and I do realize that it does take a big investment to keep an engine running and to operate one, but I hope that we can educate people to the fact that they are not as big polluters as people think they are and stuff like that as well as keeping the railraods alive in general.

Stuart

My Project
gnufe@apex.net

Erik, I think you are completely on the mark. It is almost like a disease, to find the nearest 4-8-4 and restore it to operation regardless of ever being able to run it. So they spend a half million on a locomotive when they could have spent that money upgrading a tourist line or short line up to better track standards and run a smaller locomotive on. Or build a estoration shop for an already operating locomotive, or heck for a half a mil you could put 20 park engines inside of buildings and cosmetically restore them.

It seems like a poor use of scarce resources with little forethought to me. Just my 2 cents.

rickrailrd@aol.com

Erik, if that gentlemanly posting was your version of a rant you surely qualify for sainthood.

Bit off the mark, but seems like this might be a good time to once again suggest the idea which was posted many months ago of building a few smaller period sets of freight and passenger equipment - nothing bigger than a light mike or pacific with appropriate cars - and doing national tours on secondary and shortlines. Like the Freedom Train or the recent Post Office train, it could be palatable to the corporate entities involved as a national program.

It might take something like the Smithsonian or NPS or even AMTRAK sponsorship to make it happen but it would do litle damage to mainline freight schedules or infrastructure and fill the industrial ambassador role I ranted about a couple weeks ago.

About 611 - no technical reason she can't run again, just no economic reason she should.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

I really like the idea of a display train becoming a "Roving Ambassador of Railroading!"
Outstanding idea!!

This is the sort of thing Corporations could get involved with. Railroads, RR Supply Industry etc.
Shippers of all kinds all across America.

RR's could sponsor the train by giving it free passage on their lines.

Communities could get involved by hosting its visit and display.

> Erik, if that gentlemanly posting was your
> version of a rant you surely qualify for
> sainthood.

> Bit off the mark, but seems like this might
> be a good time to once again suggest the
> idea which was posted many months ago of
> building a few smaller period sets of
> freight and passenger equipment - nothing
> bigger than a light mike or pacific with
> appropriate cars - and doing national tours
> on secondary and shortlines. Like the
> Freedom Train or the recent Post Office
> train, it could be palatable to the
> corporate entities involved as a national
> program.

> It might take something like the Smithsonian
> or NPS or even AMTRAK sponsorship to make it
> happen but it would do litle damage to
> mainline freight schedules or infrastructure
> and fill the industrial ambassador role I
> ranted about a couple weeks ago.

> About 611 - no technical reason she can't
> run again, just no economic reason she
> should.

> Dave


oldtimetrains@rrmail.com

The pure economics of the thing do not pan out. That's true. But what of the intangibles? How did N&W employees feel about getting up and going to work when the J was out there as an ambassador for their employer? How much good press did the project generate for the company? How many freight deals were negotiated in the club car as the big steamer pounded up the Christiansburg grade?

One of the problems with corporate America today is that it is run by bean counters who have a total disdain for the public image of the company. If a railroad is prudently managed as is showing a healthy bottom line, there's nothing wrong with applying part of the marketing budget to a steam, or even antique diesel program. (How much money did Conrail make with the OCS program? Balance that against the goodwill the train generated with its employees, customers, and fans.)
Particularly in the current environment where there is such a wonderful opportunity for public relations. 2002 will be the 175th anniversary of the B&O, the 150th anniversary of the WM as an example. There are still hundreds of employees on CSX that started with these companies, and hundreds more retirees. Would it not be a fitting tribute to these people for CSX to get out from under its neatly counted pile of beans, and paint an SD70 Mac in the classic royal blue B&O scheme, or black WM with the gold speedlettering?
And as other important anniversaries come up, we could see tribute engines done for PRR, Erie, Clinchfield, N&W, and so on. On modern locomotives, maintenance and upkeep would be just your routine servicing, the only difference would be the paint job. And in this day of computer generated graphics and vinyl lettering, even that wouldn't be a big cost.
No, the railroads don't work for us, the railfans. But they need to recognize that everything from their safety campaigns to funding requests will go over a lot better if they take some time and do some positive community relations.

> The engine would need to be
> resurveyed--flues pulled, new Form 4
> calculated, CFR Part 233 compliance
> certified, etc. Doubtless a few other odds
> and ends would come up in the survey.
> Nothing money couldn't cure.

> That said, it's still safe to say 611 won't
> be running for the forseeable future. The
> engine is owned by Virginia Museum of
> Transportation and they are unlikely to
> lease it except in the exceedingly unlikely
> event of some enormously reputable and
> well-heeled group coming by with an offer
> they can't refuse.

> Assuming such a group were to appear out of
> thin air, where would they run it? Qulified
> excursion engines in the east are already
> largely hanger queens--due to insurance
> costs, lack of track capacity in the eastern
> network, lack of railroad managements
> interested in assuming the very real
> liabilites for a fairly dubious payoff, etc.
> and so on. In other words, it's not
> "just NS", its an entire
> confluence of very real circumstances.

> In my opinion, its time to let go of the era
> of big mainline steam excursions (at least
> on the East Coast) and concentrate our
> efforts on building up sustainable
> operations where the climate is more
> favorable--at our museums and tourist lines.
> 611 has a safe home and an honorable
> retirement. If you want to restore big steam
> in the east, send your mony to support the
> rebuilding of PRR 1361 or B&M 3713 at
> Steamtown. There all the pieces are in
> place: a shop to do the work, coaches to
> run, right of way to run on, insurance in
> place, etc etc etc. And yet both groups live
> from hand to mouth, starving for funds. Go
> figure.

> I don't mean to be snide, certainly not to
> Stuart whose honest question kicked off this
> rant, but I do grow weary of looking back
> and sniping at NS (or others) when we're not
> collectively fully funding and supporting
> the things we do have going right here,
> right now. In a sense, I'm not sure we
> "deserve" to have 611 back, or
> 1218, or 614, until we do a better job of
> supporting what we do have.

> Sorry for the vehemence, I must have got up
> on the wrong side of the bed--but I do feel
> quite strongly about this.


weldon@fastol.com

Your idea has merits, but unfortunately it may not come to pass.
First, for some reason many people in power in the railroads have come to the conclusion: RAILFAN="Tresspassing Idiot with a Camera"...(That 1% has given the rest a bad name.) To them more public interest in RRs means more "railfans", ie more expense for RR cops and lawyers bills.

Second, and risking generalities myself, you'll get resistance from two management types, type one (getting rarer but there are still a few around), I'll call the "Insider", who seems to beleive that if it doesn't come from within, it is a bad idea. And, the other is what we'll call a "Bean Counter", who could care less for "heritage", or a nebulous "public image" because it really doesn't affect next quarter's earnings.

The bottom line is that railroads have become VERY insulated from the public, and there are some people in the industry who may prefer it that way.

Good luck promoting the idea. Maybe there's some way to approach the railroad's advertising people with it.(Lay it out, on paper). There has to be a better way of reaching the powers that be than E-mail bombing the corporate HQ, which usually backfires anyway...

The railroad industry has a negative public relations program. Aside from a few infrequently aired TV commercials by NS and BNSF, railroad PR consists of preaching about how dangerous railroads are to the community. As for any hope of any sympathy for our cause from that quarter, FORGET IT, they have a business to run. furthermore, the preservation community is so factionalized that getting a group of people together to construct an operating environment for vintage equipment in my neck of the woods is outside the realm of possibility while the landmarks preservation community hijacks our resources. There are literally scores of station buildings within 100 miles of where I live, but NO operating historic steam. I've given up on ever seeing an operating museum where I live and I wouldn't go across the street to see another dead stuffed and mounted station.


john_blair1280@yahoo.com