Some time back, maybe 2 years ago, I had an article on Cuban steam in the RyPN articles section, detailing precisely what the optimal preservation targets should be for American preservationists should Papa Castro croak or, ahem, meet a less than timely demise. It might behoove RyPN's editors to see if they have this article saved, and repost it if possible. (I can supply new photos if needed.)

Suppose Castro croaks tomorrow, and chaos erupts, and the next thing you know roll-on-roll-off ships are floating out of Miami with loads of old cars to unload on Cuba. Should we be trying to repatriate Cuban steam?

Here are the pros and cons, all too quickly, for those who missed them the first time around:

The steam still left in Cuba, virtually all American-built, may well be 70-100 years old, but for most or all of the past 50 years they have been stored most of that time, only being fired up three or four months per year, if at all.

The condition varies from seemingly-immaculate to piles of junk in the woods with trees growing around them. We assume water treatment, etc. to be nearly nonexistent, with many of these active steamers held together with Cuban chewing gum and chicken wire.

A *limited* number of Cuban steamers are locos that formerly operated on American railroads. An educated guess is perhaps a dozen, with the real jewels (such as a Reading camelback) already gone. In addition, a large number of Cuban locos, although not actually locos that operated for American lines, are absolutely identical in all respects to locos used on American railroads. It would therefore be possible to repatriate a "clone" of, say, a Sierra loco, or a short line loco, etc. for display, restoration, or parts.

*Should* we repatriate Cuban locos? If the reason is "because we can", probably not. We already have enough projects we're falling behind on. However, no one can stop a group or individual from seeking out the last NYO&W loco, or the last RF&P steamer, provided they can raise the necessary funding.

However, a more important potential does exist--the possibility of saving either "clones" to allow the retirement or extended preservation of already-aged American locos, or raw material to allow replica or new locos to replace historic locos. Strictly as possible examples:

*A new theme park wants vintage steamers on their railroad. Or, conversely, an operation like Disney World or Cedar Point needs "new" locos. Would we rather they re-boiler historic equipment or "kit-bash" an "expendable" loco from Cuba?

*How about an operation like the Durango & Silverton, the Strasburg, or the East Broad Top fabricating from a Cuban chassis a loco to use during the light tourist season? Or maybe replicating a loco class on the EBT, D&RGW, etc, that didn't survive? Some Cuban 2-6-0s and 2-8-0s look close to EBT locos........

*Certainly Cuba deserves to save its own heritage. I can just see the tour groups such as Trains Unlimited sponsoring an excursion line at some dying sugar plantation railroad!


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Once the chaos erupts following Castro's demise, and once enough order is established to (hopefully) normalize relations between the USA and Cuba, the window of opportunity will slam shut almost instantly--my British friends and I firmly believe that, if raw capitalism wins the power struggle post-Castro, the steamers will be sold for scrap within two to four weeks. Unless someone gets the idea that Disney wants the locos at one mill, and demands "$500K each or else".

Therefore, the planning for any repatriation (identification of appropriate locos for rebuilding or preservation) MUST occur BEFORE any change in Castro cardiacs occurs, AND *immediately-available* sources of funding (such as members pledging to have $1,000 each ready on call, or an angel willing to loan a large sum of money) identified IN ADVANCE. We HAVE to assume we won't have six months, or even six weeks.

Americans are still forbidden from dealing with Cuba (but not China--go figure), but we can still send British and Canadian associates to do necessary legwork and list-making before this happens.

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> Some time back, maybe 2 years ago, I had an
> article on Cuban steam in the RyPN articles
> section, detailing precisely what the
> optimal preservation targets should be for
> American preservationists should Papa Castro
> croak or, ahem, meet a less than timely
> demise. It might behoove RyPN's editors to
> see if they have this article saved, and
> repost it if possible. (I can supply new
> photos if needed.)

> Suppose Castro croaks tomorrow, and chaos
> erupts, and the next thing you know
> roll-on-roll-off ships are floating out of
> Miami with loads of old cars to unload on
> Cuba. Should we be trying to repatriate
> Cuban steam?

> Here are the pros and cons, all too quickly,
> for those who missed them the first time
> around:

> The steam still left in Cuba, virtually all
> American-built, may well be 70-100 years
> old, but for most or all of the past 50
> years they have been stored most of that
> time, only being fired up three or four
> months per year, if at all.

> The condition varies from
> seemingly-immaculate to piles of junk in the
> woods with trees growing around them. We
> assume water treatment, etc. to be nearly
> nonexistent, with many of these active
> steamers held together with Cuban chewing
> gum and chicken wire.

> A *limited* number of Cuban steamers are
> locos that formerly operated on American
> railroads. An educated guess is perhaps a
> dozen, with the real jewels (such as a
> Reading camelback) already gone. In
> addition, a large number of Cuban locos,
> although not actually locos that operated
> for American lines, are absolutely identical
> in all respects to locos used on American
> railroads. It would therefore be possible to
> repatriate a "clone" of, say, a
> Sierra loco, or a short line loco, etc. for
> display, restoration, or parts.

> *Should* we repatriate Cuban locos? If the
> reason is "because we can",
> probably not. We already have enough
> projects we're falling behind on. However,
> no one can stop a group or individual from
> seeking out the last NYO&W loco, or the
> last RF&P steamer, provided they can
> raise the necessary funding.

> However, a more important potential does
> exist--the possibility of saving either
> "clones" to allow the retirement
> or extended preservation of already-aged
> American locos, or raw material to allow
> replica or new locos to replace historic
> locos. Strictly as possible examples:

> *A new theme park wants vintage steamers on
> their railroad. Or, conversely, an operation
> like Disney World or Cedar Point needs
> "new" locos. Would we rather they
> re-boiler historic equipment or
> "kit-bash" an
> "expendable" loco from Cuba?

> *How about an operation like the Durango
> & Silverton, the Strasburg, or the East
> Broad Top fabricating from a Cuban chassis a
> loco to use during the light tourist season?
> Or maybe replicating a loco class on the
> EBT, D&RGW, etc, that didn't survive?
> Some Cuban 2-6-0s and 2-8-0s look close to
> EBT locos........

> *Certainly Cuba deserves to save its own
> heritage. I can just see the tour groups
> such as Trains Unlimited sponsoring an
> excursion line at some dying sugar
> plantation railroad!

Steam is nice, Sandy, but don't forget the interurbans on the old Hershey Cuban Railway. Seems to me, one would be easier to transport and restore to service than a steam locomotive.


sloan@auchincloss.com

Thanks for some (your usual cogent) sense on the subject.

> Americans are still forbidden from dealing
> with Cuba (but not China--go figure)

Yep.

superheater@rrmail.com

There must be some Canadians that read this board.
Appliances and parts could be saved and shipped to Canada. Once they are there it could be "forgot" where they were found, Hey old parts are old parts. At least some good could come out of it. Also in a few years things will change and what was stored there would be importable anyway.
M.Nix

2rivers@upstel.net

> Some time back, maybe 2 years ago, I had an
> article on Cuban steam in the RyPN articles
> section, detailing precisely what the
> optimal preservation targets should be for
> American preservationists should Papa Castro
> croak or, ahem, meet a less than timely
> demise. It might behoove RyPN's editors to
> see if they have this article saved, and
> repost it if possible. (I can supply new
> photos if needed.)

> Suppose Castro croaks tomorrow, and chaos
> erupts, and the next thing you know
> roll-on-roll-off ships are floating out of
> Miami with loads of old cars to unload on
> Cuba. Should we be trying to repatriate
> Cuban steam?

> Here are the pros and cons, all too quickly,
> for those who missed them the first time
> around:

> The steam still left in Cuba, virtually all
> American-built, may well be 70-100 years
> old, but for most or all of the past 50
> years they have been stored most of that
> time, only being fired up three or four
> months per year, if at all.

> The condition varies from
> seemingly-immaculate to piles of junk in the
> woods with trees growing around them. We
> assume water treatment, etc. to be nearly
> nonexistent, with many of these active
> steamers held together with Cuban chewing
> gum and chicken wire.

> A *limited* number of Cuban steamers are
> locos that formerly operated on American
> railroads. An educated guess is perhaps a
> dozen, with the real jewels (such as a
> Reading camelback) already gone. In
> addition, a large number of Cuban locos,
> although not actually locos that operated
> for American lines, are absolutely identical
> in all respects to locos used on American
> railroads. It would therefore be possible to
> repatriate a "clone" of, say, a
> Sierra loco, or a short line loco, etc. for
> display, restoration, or parts.

> *Should* we repatriate Cuban locos? If the
> reason is "because we can",
> probably not. We already have enough
> projects we're falling behind on. However,
> no one can stop a group or individual from
> seeking out the last NYO&W loco, or the
> last RF&P steamer, provided they can
> raise the necessary funding.

> However, a more important potential does
> exist--the possibility of saving either
> "clones" to allow the retirement
> or extended preservation of already-aged
> American locos, or raw material to allow
> replica or new locos to replace historic
> locos. Strictly as possible examples:

> *A new theme park wants vintage steamers on
> their railroad. Or, conversely, an operation
> like Disney World or Cedar Point needs
> "new" locos. Would we rather they
> re-boiler historic equipment or
> "kit-bash" an
> "expendable" loco from Cuba?

> *How about an operation like the Durango
> & Silverton, the Strasburg, or the East
> Broad Top fabricating from a Cuban chassis a
> loco to use during the light tourist season?
> Or maybe replicating a loco class on the
> EBT, D&RGW, etc, that didn't survive?
> Some Cuban 2-6-0s and 2-8-0s look close to
> EBT locos........

> *Certainly Cuba deserves to save its own
> heritage. I can just see the tour groups
> such as Trains Unlimited sponsoring an
> excursion line at some dying sugar
> plantation railroad!
Trains Unlimited HAS ALREADY run several tours to Cuba. And not to get heavily into politics, if Fidel & the inefficiency of communism hadn't happened, these steam locos would have been scrapped decades ago. Cuba's mainline railroads were dieselized prior to 1959, and if US companies controlled the sugar mills after 1959, they'd be hauling in the cane with trucks, not steam locos.

bas1210@comcast.net

Cuba could be the Barry Scrapyard of the Americas. OTOH, maybe not.....still, the bureaucrats there must understand the value of a Euro or else why would they event consider going to the trouble of scrapping?

More Euros for a whole junker than for tons of scrap should get the point across.

Who better to run intereference in this direction that the Brits. Who also better to be ready and waiting in the wings when the change of government does inevitably occur to have the infrastructure and plans ready to set up a tourist industry based on nostalgia and climate?

If we can assist friendly governments who haven't closed the doors to building relationships with Cuba in this regard it may do some good.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

I would like to say few words on why American preservationests should make a try at getting equipment back from Cuba.

That is that there are several pieces of railroad equipment that are extinct in North Americ and exist in Cuba. Yhe New york Ontario & Western is one example that I know about. There are several narrow gauge engines.

We should no go there just looking for spare parts, amusement park displays or some kind of clone that probably will end up wrond anyway.

In the end it will only happen if some person or
proup of people spends a lot of money.

Moving an engine to Canada seems to make a lot of sence to me. Survival has to happen before preservation or restoration.

Good Luck folks!



ted_miles@nps.dov

Like much of the 3rd World, the dirty, nasty, filthy Yanqui Amerikan dollar is the real "Coin of the Realm" in Castro-Land. My brief (and fully legal) experience in Cuba, scouting for a movie, showed that everything is for sale for U.S. currency, and often for half of what one would expect.

I would encourage those with historical preservation interests (i.e., preservation candidates) on the island to start saving their nickles and dimes. Also, contact the U.S. State Department concerning the slowly diminishing import/export restrictions.

amiller@rtms-movietrains.com

> I would like to say few words on why
> American preservationests should make a try
> at getting equipment back from Cuba.

> That is that there are several pieces of
> railroad equipment that are extinct in North
> Americ and exist in Cuba.

> In the end it will only happen if some
> person or
> proup of people spends a lot of money.

Ted,

A search of the "Industrial Steam Locomotives of Cuba" reveals that only six ex-US road steam engines made it into the MINAZ national numbering scheme that ocurred in 1974. That means that all of the other ex-US road engines known to have gone to Cuba were out of service by 1974. That's 30 years ago folks. Those engines are gone!

Of the six that survived past 1974, three are reported in the book to have been scrapped, one is listed as derelict in 1997 (partially cut up boiler on a frame), one was converted (unsucessfully) to a fireless cooker and probably since scrapped and one was dismantled for repair in 1997. That engine was a Cooke 2-6-0 CN 2114-1891. It was built as Evansville & Terre Haute #50 and as of 2003 was still known to exist, having actually worked the 2002 harvest. So, one ex-US road engine is known to still exist.

The rest of the engines that still survive in Cuba were mostly built new for Cuba during the prosperous post WW I era. These were the newest and most likely to have survived. The ex-US road engines were all used when shipped to Cuba pre WW-I and most were worn out and scrapped years ago.

Fantasies of finding that lost O&W or BR&P engine are nice, but just that, fantasies. Besides, even buying from Cuba through a second party is a violation of the Trading With The Enemy Act. Until Castro goes, we won't be able to bring anything to the US.

Our best hope is that the Cuban's themselves start to recognize that some of their engines have historical significance and preserve them on their own. There is some evidence that this is now happening, but unfortunately it's too late for the really rare stuff.

trainrider47@aol.com

> A search of the "Industrial Steam
> Locomotives of Cuba" reveals that only
> six ex-US road steam engines made it into
> the MINAZ national numbering scheme that
> ocurred in 1974. That means that all of the
> other ex-US road engines known to have gone
> to Cuba were out of service by 1974. That's
> 30 years ago folks. Those engines are gone!

*May I respectfully point out:
1) the number of ROAD locos may be small, but some of the intended targets are New York Elevated locos or short-line locos.
2) Some of the "intended targets" are locos that never made it into the MINAZ number system, but were last reported to STILL survive. Among them are NYO&W 109 and now-preserved Chicago South Side Rapid Transit 0-4-4T #42.
3) Many of the built-for-Cuba locos were/are "clones" of otherwise-identical American locos nor running or gone. Supposedly a couple locos precisely match Mobile & Gulf 2-6-0 97, for example. If we were to find a "clone," or one very close, for a Ma & Pa steamer or an early EBT Mogul or 2-8-0, can we not at least consider the option of replication? Or how about identical parts for an Arcade & Attica loco?

> The rest of the engines that still survive
> in Cuba were mostly built new for Cuba
> during the prosperous post WW I era. These
> were the newest and most likely to have
> survived. The ex-US road engines were all
> used when shipped to Cuba pre WW-I and most
> were worn out and scrapped years ago.

*MOST--but not all. I can say that no one on this board (at least who read my article here a year or two ago) is under the delusion we're going to find a Pennsy T1, a NYC Hudson, or even a Reading Camelback down there.

> Fantasies of finding that lost O&W or
> BR&P engine are nice, but just that,
> fantasies. Besides, even buying from Cuba
> through a second party is a violation of the
> Trading With The Enemy Act. Until Castro
> goes, we won't be able to bring anything to
> the US.

*No, but we ARE able to use our British and Canadian friends to keep an eye on the situation, and hint to the Cubans about our interest--or even just to confirm whether or not the locos we're interested in are still there or gone. (By the way, the law is an a** in this case.)



LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> now-preserved Chicago South Side Rapid
> Transit 0-4-4T #42.

That one was preserved by the Cuban's themselves, so unlikely they would part with it, but it's amazing that it survived.

> If we were to find a "clone," or one
> very close, for a Ma & Pa steamer

That's a possibility. What you need is to compare the published Baldwin CN numbers with the Baldwin class books to see if there are any matches.

> or an early EBT Mogul or 2-8-0, can we not at
> least consider the option of replication?

Unfortunately, there wasn't much 3 foot gauge in Cuba and the surviving 3 footers are outside frame engines, now that Central Frank Pais went ahead and scrapped the Tweetsie clone 4-6-0's that they had saved for many years!

> *No, but we ARE able to use our British and
> Canadian friends to keep an eye on the
> situation, and hint to the Cubans about our
> interest--or even just to confirm whether or
> not the locos we're interested in are still
> there or gone. (By the way, the law is an
> a** in this case.)

That was pretty much my last point, our best hope is Cuban preservation, not repatriation. A group of American Rail Preservation experts did meet with the Cuban authorities last June and urged them to scrap nothing, as the scrap value is well below the preserved value. Since the Cuban's went ahead and scrapped 50+ locomotives, it seems that they did not agree!

I agree wholeheartedly with your final point!


trainrider47@aol.com

> Like much of the 3rd World, the dirty,
> nasty, filthy Yanqui Amerikan dollar is the
> real "Coin of the Realm" in
> Castro-Land. My brief (and fully legal)
> experience in Cuba, scouting for a movie,
> showed that everything is for sale for U.S.
> currency, and often for half of what one
> would expect.

> I would encourage those with historical
> preservation interests (i.e., preservation
> candidates) on the island to start saving
> their nickles and dimes. Also, contact the
> U.S. State Department concerning the slowly
> diminishing import/export restrictions.
Admin has removed 2 of my posts explaining how the political situation in Cuba is totally related to the preservation question at hand. I have been to Cuba legally 4 times and know ehat I'm speaking about. As admin does not want others to know, I'm finished with this board. Let's see how long this post lasts. Oh yes, my posts had no flaming, profanity & I use my real name. Adios!

bas1210@comcast.net

The posts in question were removed for continuing a debate about general Cuban politics and history which has been ruled out of bounds.

Anyone is welcome to post on present-day Cuban locomotives, their location, strategies for repatriation etc., but the posts in question reopened issues of pre- and postrevolutionary labor conditions, and we're just not going to go there. I am sure many readers could participate in an informed debate about pre- and post-revolutionary Cuba--but that is not what we're here for. The broader subject has been debated in this country for 50 years, will conintue to be debated, and won't be clarified or resolved here.

Anyone wishing to continue the broader political conversation with Mr. Singer is encouraged to contact him at his email address in the post above.

eledbetter@rypn.org