The cab on NP #1364 is nearing completion and we hope to install it soon. It is a wooden cab with tongue and groove over the top. Originally this was covered with painted canvas. The suggestion was made to cover it with fiberglass cloth and resin to simulate the old canvas material and have a much more durable and waterproof covering. The roof on our wooden caboose also needs to be redone. Others have used torch down roofing, but fiberglass might make a longer lasting roof. I would assume it could be painted the same as canvas and simulate the original but possibly with less risk of future leaks. Has anyone tried the use of fiberglass? What were the results?

NP 1364
doug@nprymuseum.org

> The cab on NP #1364 is nearing completion
> and we hope to install it soon. It is a
> wooden cab with tongue and groove over the
> top. Originally this was covered with
> painted canvas. The suggestion was made to
> cover it with fiberglass cloth and resin to
> simulate the old canvas material and have a
> much more durable and waterproof covering.

I doubt you could get fiberglass cloth to look like canvas, but you could always try it and let us know the results. On the other hand, when I worked on the Mt. Washington Cog Railway in the 60s, several engines with old wooden cabs had sheet iron roofs. These were obviously not a recent retrofit so I would consider them genuine from the historic perspective. Since you are working with curves in a single dimension, application would be easy.

> The roof on our wooden caboose also needs to
> be redone. Others have used torch down
> roofing, but fiberglass might make a longer
> lasting roof. I would assume it could be
> painted the same as canvas and simulate the
> original but possibly with less risk of
> future leaks. Has anyone tried the use of
> fiberglass? What were the results?

For a caboose I would go with rubber even though it doesn't look like canvas because it is so superior weatherwise.


davidwoodbury@adelphia.net

At Tweetsie we have gone to a Rubberized roof. We get it in a roll cut to fit our cars. We use special adhesive to hold it down to the tongue and groove boards in the cellings of our cars. We have only converted 2 of the 5 cars. They are the first and the last in the order we pull them. But it holds up to our cinders and so far we have not seen any burn through damage. As soon as the other cars metal sheet metal roofs rust away they will get the rubber roof.

Tim

http://www.tweetsie.com
tssmith@boone.net

I recall that the streetcar museum folks tried fiberglass roofing material more than 25 years ago and came to the conclusion that it was not a good idea.

The fiberglass is too stiff and does not flex like the wood underneath it. I think that the fiberglass actually cracked due to the flexing.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net

> The cab on NP #1364 is nearing completion
> and we hope to install it soon. It is a
> wooden cab with tongue and groove over the
> top. Originally this was covered with
> painted canvas. The suggestion was made to
> cover it with fiberglass cloth and resin to
> simulate the old canvas material and have a
> much more durable and waterproof covering.
> The roof on our wooden caboose also needs to
> be redone. Others have used torch down
> roofing, but fiberglass might make a longer
> lasting roof. I would assume it could be
> painted the same as canvas and simulate the
> original but possibly with less risk of
> future leaks. Has anyone tried the use of
> fiberglass? What were the results?

We have used the torch-down years ago (20+) on a wood coach roof, with very good results. The wood must be in good shape, because once the torch-down bitumen goes on, that's it... no-do overs. It should be recoated every two-three years with "glop" to put the volatiles back into the material, after UV and sunlight bleach them out.

I have heard of cases where fiberglass has been tried, and the users were not really thrilled with it, as the fiberglass is too stiff and can crack when the roof structure flexes (as things that travel on railroad tracks are known to do).

Strasburg has used rubber on coach roof recovering for years and is pretty happy with it.


hpincus@mindspring.com

Thanks for the thoughts.
Could people be more specific about brands of torch down roofing material and which "rubber" or "rubberized" roofing materials they have used? We have looked at several torch down brands, but none of the suppliers had experience with them in the railroad environment. Several brands of torch down material have been used on local cabooses, but they are all on static display. We will be using the locomotive and caboose at least within our yard, so they will be exposed to the forces imparted with movement.
Has anyone used the old painted canvas technique or is that totally obsolete now?



doug@nprymuseum.org

> Has anyone used the old painted canvas
> technique or is that totally obsolete now?

We have done several canvas roofs and intend to continue to use them where authentic and appropriate to the resoration. Most of our electric ars (streetcars and interurbans) relied on this system, but also cabooses and other pieces of equipment.

There is some experience or learning curve but canvas has several advantages, especially in roof ends or other areas with compound curves. The canvas does in fact give or float over the roof and does not crack or fail the way fiberglass does.

Two tips include soaking or washing out any sizing prior to stretching the raw canvas and using specially formulated canvas paint which does not attack the cloth and does not lead to a brittle build up of the coating. Never apply asphalt or bituminous coatings to canvas.

Bob Kutella


68trolley@comcast.net

> We have done several canvas roofs and intend
> to continue to use them where authentic and
> appropriate to the resoration. Most of our
> electric ars (streetcars and interurbans)
> relied on this system, but also cabooses and
> other pieces of equipment.

> There is some experience or learning curve
> but canvas has several advantages,
> especially in roof ends or other areas with
> compound curves. The canvas does in fact
> give or float over the roof and does not
> crack or fail the way fiberglass does.

> Two tips include soaking or washing out any
> sizing prior to stretching the raw canvas
> and using specially formulated canvas paint
> which does not attack the cloth and does not
> lead to a brittle build up of the coating.
> Never apply asphalt or bituminous coatings
> to canvas.

> Bob Kutella

The canvas roof is the proper way to restore a railroad car that originally had that type of roof. That said, it must be remembered that the canvas roof was expected to last for 5-8 years, and then be renewed. This was when there were lots of 47 1/2 cent-per-hour carmen, and lots of carshops. In today's rail preservation environment, few places have the luxury of being able to replace a canvas roof every 10 years. If the car can live inside a building, a proper canvas roof is appropriate (IRM has lots of nicely-restored cars, and over 10,000 track feet in buildings, as I recall).

For the vast majority of us, the roof has to live a life that can be measured in decades outdoors. The rubber roofing system also approximates the "floating" action of the old canvas.

Also, I would advise you to be careful of the recommendations of commercial roofing contractors who have never dealt with a railcar before. We have some cars that had torch-down roofs done by one of these guys about 12 years ago, and the roof will have to be redone again soon, because they used an underlayment paper and torched down the bitumen to that. The whole thing is now trying to slide off the curved lower deck of the clerestory. The roofer had insisted that was the way to go, rather than the method we had used years earlier on another car, which was a direct torch-down (which has shown no signs of "sliding").


hpincus@mindspring.com

> Also, I would advise you to be careful of
> the recommendations of commercial roofing
> contractors who have never dealt with a
> railcar before. We have some cars that had
> torch-down roofs done by one of these guys
> about 12 years ago, and the roof will have
> to be redone again soon, because they used
> an underlayment paper and torched down the
> bitumen to that. The whole thing is now
> trying to slide off the curved lower deck of
> the clerestory. The roofer had insisted that
> was the way to go, rather than the method we
> had used years earlier on another car, which
> was a direct torch-down (which has shown no
> signs of "sliding").

Just as a matter of interest, if I were to apply some sort of torch-down roofing material, am I then literally stuck with it? Would there be any way to remove it if I later wanted to install good old painted canvas?

I have to agree --- this was what was recommended most often when we were in the process of restoring our combine. If there is any possibility that this car will be spending most of its life outdoors, then to me there should be no question.

Suprisingly enough, the rubber membrane looks pretty good, especially if done right. Our roof has held up to four season northly winds off Lake Huron beautifully now for three years. Other than maintaining paint and caulking in and around windows (we have open clerestories), the car has done amazingly well.

Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

If you do use canvas roofing, be sure to use stainless steel staples or nails to hold it down.
Regular nails eventually will rust and the roof will blow off in large pieces.

Latex paint seems to work better than oil-based paint on canvas roofs.

fkrock@pacbell.net

> If you do use canvas roofing, be sure to use
> stainless steel staples or nails to hold it
> down.
> Regular nails eventually will rust and the
> roof will blow off in large pieces.

Well, that hasn't been our experience. On the other hand, all of our recent roof jobs have been stored inside since completion, so we haven't given them a chance to rust and rot. Regular carpet tacks seem to work just fine.

> Latex paint seems to work better than
> oil-based paint on canvas roofs.

It does? As Bob mentioned above, we've always used oil-based canvas paint with good results.

> It does? As Bob mentioned above, we've
> always used oil-based canvas paint with good
> results.

Many years ago I believe we used a canvas paint from Cabot which is no longer available. A local company has reversed engineered the formula to some extent and is willing to produce small batches to order. Several other museums have taken advantage of this source and we have not had any negative feedback.

I believe that the major vehicle is linseed oil and the product is very thin and watery. This allows it to penetrate well but requires two or three coats on new raw canvas, with appropriate drying time to allow the linseed oil to polymerize. When complete is is fairly flexible and sheds water like a duck's back.

Bob


68trolley@comcast.net

> Just as a matter of interest, if I were to
> apply some sort of torch-down roofing
> material, am I then literally stuck with it?
> Would there be any way to remove it if I
> later wanted to install good old painted
> canvas?

No, once the torch-down stuff is applied, it's permanent, and will be difficult to remove. If you want to eventually install a canvas roof, I would use a rubber membrane now...it's more easily "reversible" later.

hpincus@mindspring.com

Has anyone considered a new canvas roof OVER a new membrane roof? I realize there is the added cost, but would there be any benefits to having two layers of protection? Not being an expert on either and not having done either, is there a problem with this, i.e. the paint coating for the canvas adversely affecting the membrane or something similar? Seems like one might be able to get the best of both worlds and double the protection for the life span of the canvas. Or maybe not...

One other question. I am currently working on the restoration of Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh caboose #280. It is a wood over a steel frame caboose and has a 1x4 tongue & groove roof which has a slight curve on it as expected. Thus, the boards don't fit perfectly together. Plus, we have replaced the wood on one end of the roof, but the cupola and other end are original. The new roof surface is pretty smooth, however, the older ones are not as smooth. Would there be any benefit to covering the T&G with a thin plywood to create a smoother surface to then cover with the new roof which was canvas and may be again. However, we are also considering a membrane roof as well. The plywood would be an underlayment basically, would not be seen, but might provide a smoother surface to roof over.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Until later,
Chris


BR&P 280 at the R&GV Railroad Museum
crhauf@frontiernet.net