The May 12th posting in Flimsies titled "Keep Excursions on Track NPS Must Remember Reason For Steamtown's Existence" is right on.

The following paragraph sums up the approach made to Congress is establishing the Steamtown National Historic Site very nicely: "Rail excursions powered by authentic steam engines are a major part of the museum's missions. Those trips are not incidental to the museum's educational task, they are central to it."

Senators Arlen Specter and Rick Santorum plus Representatives Paul Kanjorski and Don Sherwood are committed to keeping mainline steam alive at Steamtown NHS. Let them know there are people out there who care about mainline steam, too!

fred.gracebailey@earthlink.net

>In response to Mr. Baileys post I am pleased to post below my Letter to the Editor of the Scranton Times which I'm told will soon be published.

May 14th, 2004
To the Editor,
While I agree with your editorial supporting the continuance of excursions as a vital part of the Steamtown program, I see its current discontinuance as an opportunity for change.
A major factor in the poor(and declining) attendance numbers at Steamtown is the endless silly rules/regulations imposed by the NPS which makes the overall visitor experience far less enjoyable than it should be and would be if the facility were operated by a proffessional private sector operator, such as Six Flags or American Amusements Corp.
With the excursion program now gone, Steamtowns numbers are certain to fall further(from poor to embarrasing) and might just get so bad as to convince the bean counters in DC to lease/sell the facility into the private sector where it would have at least some chance of success!

Steamtown is blessed with a magnificent physical plant(thanks to an $80 million dollar taxpayer investment) and an above average railroad ride up the mountain,assets that should and could draw 500,000 paid visitors/year(vs, barely 100,000 now) if it were run in a customer friendly manner (think Disney) not as a Federal Penal colony under the NPS!

For Scrantons and Steamtowns sake, I hope the NPS crys uncle sooner than later!

Ross Rowland
>

rrowland@weidel.com

a proffessional private sector
> operator, such as Six Flags or American
> Amusements Corp.

There is much to criticize about NPS's stewardship of Steamtown. But I do not think it can be successfully argued that this is an attractive business to a company expecting the rate of return demanded by the Street.

Why would a rational, profit-making, publically-traded company like Six Flags want to operate Steamtown? If I were the CEO I would run in the other direction as fast as I could.

I am trying to imagine myself as a shareholder of Six Flags, listening to my management present a business plan which projects not only a profit but a long-term 5-9% annual growth rate out of operating a railroad park with a full-scale backshop and a set of sixty to eighty year old steam locomotives and coaches. I am just not seeing how the sort of return is available from this kind of asset.

If it were available, would not the private sector long since have rushed in to provide the needed service?

Maybe a private businessman or partnership who is willing do it for the enjoyment of being in a different and very challenging business, and is willing to operate on a cost-recovery basis (See D&S's owners over the years and the Ashbys as well) could make a go of it for as long as their interest held out. But, outright, full-scale, sell-it-off out of the public domain privatization? I simply cannot see a workable business plan for this collection and this business at this site. I for one sure wouldn't buy stock in such a company it if it were offered to me. Strasburg, yes. D&S or White Pass, maybe. Steamtown, no.

Entrepreneurship may be part of Steamtown's solution, but if so it will be in the form of outsourcing management of the train ride, the backshops, and basic site infrastructure services (light, heat, claening, maintenance). There is no need in my opinion to outsource curation, interpretation, and visitor services--these are NPS's core strengths and they do an excellent job.



eledbetter@rypn.org

> a proffessional private sector

> There is much to criticize about NPS's
> stewardship of Steamtown. But I do not think
> it can be successfully argued that this is
> an attractive business to a company
> expecting the rate of return demanded by the
> Street.

> Why would a rational, profit-making,
> publically-traded company like Six Flags
> want to operate Steamtown? If I were the CEO
> I would run in the other direction as fast
> as I could.

> I am trying to imagine myself as a
> shareholder of Six Flags, listening to my
> management present a business plan which
> projects not only a profit but a long-term
> 5-9% annual growth rate out of operating a
> railroad park with a full-scale backshop and
> a set of sixty to eighty year old steam
> locomotives and coaches. I am just not
> seeing how the sort of return is available
> from this kind of asset.

> If it were available, would not the private
> sector long since have rushed in to provide
> the needed service?

> Maybe a private businessman or partnership
> who is willing do it for the enjoyment of
> being in a different and very challenging
> business, and is willing to operate on a
> cost-recovery basis (See D&S's owners
> over the years and the Ashbys as well) could
> make a go of it for as long as their
> interest held out. But, outright,
> full-scale, sell-it-off out of the public
> domain privatization? I simply cannot see a
> workable business plan for this collection
> and this business at this site. I for one
> sure wouldn't buy stock in such a company it
> if it were offered to me. Strasburg, yes.
> D&S or White Pass, maybe. Steamtown, no.

> Entrepreneurship may be part of Steamtown's
> solution, but if so it will be in the form
> of outsourcing management of the train ride,
> the backshops, and basic site infrastructure
> services (light, heat, claening,
> maintenance). There is no need in my opinion
> to outsource curation, interpretation, and
> visitor services--these are NPS's core
> strengths and they do an excellent job.
I must be sick or having a bad day . When I agree with erik. bb

In regards to Mr. Rowland's Comments:

>assets that should and could draw 500,000 paid visitors/year(vs, barely 100,000 now) if it were run in a customer friendly manner (think Disney) not as a Federal Penal colony under the NPS!

I think the problem is that NPS manages steamtown very much like a Six Flags or a Disney park - you are free to 'access' or 'explore' only the areas designated for public access. I cannot imagine them reducing any of the rules at Steamtown simply because it would increase their insurance rates. Moreover, security at Six Flags parks frequently conduct random bag searches for contraband like outside food -- see the link below.

The best thing that Steamtown National Historic Site (SNHS) could do is to forge partnerships with neighboring historical societies in order to maximize their mutual strengths. SNHS is unique in being located close to of a number of historical societies and preservation minded railroads that have done a great deal to preserve railroad history, yet have limited restoration and display resources. These groups have memberships that could contribute volunteer labor and to help with both restoration and operations, as well as providing docents for interpretive exhibits and expanded tours – something which SNHS needs but is expensive to provide with paid labor. Moreover, these groups also have individuals who are familiar with railroad operations and management – expertise that it appears that SNHS has lacked. These groups need a secure place to store, restore, and operate their equipment – which is something that SNHS has in their yard, shop and mainline.

This would take compromises on both sides – Both the SNHS and the historical societies would have to be amenable to working with outsiders broadly change their respective cultures. However, both sides would be able to accomplish much more than if they remained independent.

Of the top of my head the list of groups near Steamtown, with equipment relevant to the Scranton area includes: The Anthracite Railroads Historical Society www.arhs.com - United Railway Historical Society of New Jersey www.urhs.org - Reading Company Technical and Historical Society www.readingrailroad.org - the operations using George Hart collection in Jim Thorpe -- as well as the neighboring Delaware Lackawanna, Reading & Northern and RMDI inc. (locomotive rebuilder located in a former LV roundhouse, shop, and yard in Coxton Yard, Pittston, PA)

I welcome further comments.

Tom Cornillie

Six Flags Magic Mountain settles lawsuit
rrhistorian@hotmail.com

The current SNHS situation must be viewed through the political spectrum. Using that schema to develop a solution requires a concensus followed by active support from key interest groups. Sadly, railroad preservationists are not well experienced at either.

Worse, NPS regulations will not let them effectively participate in deciding the fate of key agency assets (like SNHS, or STEA, or whatever you wish to call the place). What they need is an organized, reasonable, and effective "interest group."

With an L Street lawyer friend, I spent part of Thursday afternoon in the Rayburn Building watching a House Appropriations Committee mark up a military spending bill. I also got to watch some of the world's most effective lobbyists "doing their thing." (On those days, the hallway outside of the committee room is known as "Gucci Gulch.") For those truly interested in a reasonable SNHS solution, I would recommend a trip to any House or Senate appropriations bill markup session.

While we don't have to wear those aforementioned $2000/pair cap-toed shoes, serious railroad preservationists would do well to master the political process and become truly effective political players. Nothing says one cannot wear Red Wing steel-toed boots IF your message is well crafted, makes rational economic sense, and does not embarrass agency and elected officials.

Yes, there ARE some success stories. But so far, and from a broad national prespective, the railroad preservation movement is hitless going into the bottom of the 4th.

amiller@rtms-movietrains.com

>I agree with Erik that no professional entertainment company would go anywhere near the Steamtown operation,primarily as it is located in a non-tourist destination to say it politely.
The only way a Six Flags or any of the other proffesionals would be interested enough to take a serious look at it would be if the NPS offered it at a $1/year-long term lease,PLUS a $One Million/year management fee.

You might say why the heck would the Feds ever do that! Real simple- it's now costing them $5 Million/year to keep the place open(with continuingly declining visitorship),making Steamtown one of the very worst in the system in terms of cost/visitor and in these times of ever tightening budgets to be able to "save" $4 million/year might look very appealing?

I think Tom Cornillie's comments are true and important. I can testify that nearly all the projects I was able to pull off(Golden Spike, American Freedom Train,Chessie Steam Special, Port Jervis program,etc.) happened in large part thanks to behind the curtain support from shippers/politicians whose friendship/help the railroads badly needed. This is an area the rail preservation community needs to get up to speed on and effectively employ(think Rails to Trails).

Ross Rowland

>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>-

>

>>

>


rrowland@weidel.com

> The current SNHS situation must be viewed
> through the political spectrum. Using that
> schema to develop a solution requires a
> concensus followed by active support from
> key interest groups. Sadly, railroad
> preservationists are not well experienced at
> either.

> Worse, NPS regulations will not let them
> effectively participate in deciding the fate
> of key agency assets (like SNHS, or STEA, or
> whatever you wish to call the place). What
> they need is an organized, reasonable, and
> effective "interest group."

Art, I like your way of thinking. Let's backtrack a bit and take a historical look at the political life of Steamtown. Steamtown's founder, F. Nelson Blount, tried the political route early on; he almost succeeded in getting the state of New Hampshire to build a rather elaborate museum for his collection in Keene, but a change in governors killed it. However, had that actually happened, I don't know how well it would be received by railfans and preservationists today; Blount was not a preservationist per se. He liked fake stacks and headlights (remember Blount era Edaville) and even planned the same treatment for at one of his standard gauge steamers for being talked out of it by some employees. Paint schemes and renumbering didn't phase him, either. Would a Blount Steamtown ever have received national endorsement by the railroad preservation community? Probably not!

After Blount passed away, Steamtown survived in Vermont largely unnoticed by the railroad preservation community and with virtually no political influence. Other than the Vermont Bicentennial Steam Expedition in 1976, Steamtown never received any significant financial help from the State; in fact, a rather ridiculous state law on highway sigange was a significant factor in turning tourists away from Steamtown. There was a half-hearted inquiry at one point to get Steamtown included in the NPS, but Vermont lacked the political cloud required to get it past the "wishful thinking stage". And even though Steamtown qualified for some federal programs (Federal Surplus,for example), the small state of Vermont didn't have the personnel (and perhaps the interest) to help.

When the City of Scranton decided it wanted Steamtown, it was a whole new ballgame--at least it appeared so on the surface. For some of us "hicks from the sticks" connected with Steamtown at the time, Scranton's offer was a dream come true. Of course, that was before we knew anything about Scranton politics and broken promises. Having been personally involved in the thick of things, I look back at the situation as one of the politicians being sold a bill of goods they really knew nothing about. They expected "instant Disneyland", but really knew nothing about steam railroading or railroad preservation. Unfortunately, the cost of doing business was much higher than they expected.

However, to the Scrantonians credit, they DID manage arrange political support on the local county, state and national levels for the Steamtown project. Without that poilitical support, Steamtown would have died.

I also recall vividly the last year of Steamtown Foundation operations in Scranton. While the local politicians were trying to save the Steamtown project from bankruptcy, what was the railfan/preservationist community doing? Well, the railfans were up in arms! SF had embarked upon an expansion into the Poconos, and God forbid, everything was being painted up LACKAWANNA. There were diesels in the picture, too, and everthing that was supposed to happen didn't. The decisions for the Pocono expansion were made by SF's Board of Directors, most of whom were not railfans nor preservationists. Yes, railfans were seriously questioning their decisions--but what the railfans didn't know was that this same Board of Directors had an ulterior motive with the Pocono expansion: to buy some time to get a National Historic Site estabilished by the U. S. Congress. About the Pocono expansion, I can recall former U. N. ambassador Bill Scranton saying at a BOD meeting; it doesn't matter if we loose a hundred thousand or two million as long as we get the time needed to get legislation passed. He was right!

The preservationist community was at Steamtown's throat, too. Yeah, I remember the all the complaints--just like most readers do. There's no reason to rehash them again. The important thing to remember is this: Steamtown, after nearly thirty years of trying, was elevated to the national political level.

In July, 1995 the Steamtown National Historic Site had its grand opening, and I was impressed.
A couple of things stood out in my mind: foremost, were the operating steam locomotives. It really didn't matter whether they were authentically lettered Canadian Pacific, Canadian National or Milwaukee Road; the real "show" was mainline steam climbing the grades out of Scranton. And, ironically, many railfans regarded a blue painted light Pacific as the star of the show! Secondly, there was Bill Withuhn of the Smithsonian acting as master of ceremonies for the Parade of Trains. Yes, Steamtown's unheralded collection of work-a-day locomotives was being looked at in a different way: they COULD tell the story of steam railroading the way it was.

Today, I decided to plug the name Bill Withuhn into my computer's search engine. I found many interesting things, two of which stood out: (1) being recognized by the Federal Railroad Administration for helping revise steam locomotive regulations to keep steam operating into the 21st century, and (2) organizing a panel of railroad museum curators to assess the damage to artifacts in the B&O Railroad Museum roof collapse. Why did these stand out in my mind? Because they're on opposite ends of the railroad preservation spectrum. In between are many, many preservation issues that BIll has dealt with. Is there a better person to give the railroad preservation community some good advise on railroad preservation issues than Bill Withuhn?

To get the national political attention the railroad preservation movement deserves, we've got to get beyond the petty differences that currently exist. It's going to take a major effort to focus on "national issues". There is considerable, and often emotional, discussion on a number of forums about individual projects--and, in many cases, each has it's own merits: BUT they are not all of national importence. We have to devise a way of determining what ones are!



fred.gracebailey@earthlink.net

Erik Ledbetter wrote:
> There is no need in my opinion
> to outsource curation, interpretation, and
> visitor services--these are NPS's core
> strengths and they do an excellent job.

Greetings to Erik and all:

On facts alone, I'll have to respectfully dissent from this statement. The issue isn't whether public or private administration does a better job at curation, interpretation, or visitor experience. Either sector can do either a good or bad job.

To cite just one example, interpretation in the museum part of Steamtown is a disappointment. A glance at the groupings of "stuff" in glass cases shows that someone thought that he or she could get away with decorating with eye candy. After spending $60+ million, how can you take the compelling drama and stories of American railroading and reduce them to pointless visual cliches? I don't know, but exhibit designers there found a way to do so. If they were NPS staff people, they were mismatched to the task. If they were outside contractors, NPS should have ridden herd on them to get across the right message.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.


cupper@att.net

The issue isn't
> whether public or private administration
> does a better job at curation,
> interpretation, or visitor experience.
> Either sector can do either a good or bad
> job.

Agreed!

> To cite just one example, interpretation in
> the museum part of Steamtown is a
> disappointment. A glance at the groupings of
> "stuff" in glass cases shows that
> someone thought that he or she could get
> away with decorating with eye candy. After
> spending $60+ million, how can you take the
> compelling drama and stories of American
> railroading and reduce them to pointless
> visual cliches?

Well, stepping back from my one-sentence summary above and looking at the whole of the Steamtown interpretive experience, I'll concede its a more mixed bag.

Steamtown does some excellent interpretive things, much better than most other railway museums I know, but much of what I like is interpretive programs, not exhibits: the top-notch ranger-led shop tours, and the creative use of living history interpreters in the RAILS program. I think many other groups could profit from seeing how a Steamtown ranger conducts a guided tour, and seeing how Steamtown uses museum-based theatre to engage its audience.

The exhibits are a more mixed bag. I have always been disappointed in the "history museum"--it suffers from all the flaws Dan points out.

However, I think the "technology museum" is substantially better. My wife (a chemist by trianing with no particular interest in railroads) found the valve gear simulations, the explanation of firing a steam engine, and the cutaway 0-6-0 all very interesting, and she walked away saying how much she had enjoyed it all. For some visitors at least, the technology exhibitry works, and is much more interesting than the standard railway museum placard (You know--build date, builder, summary of arcane technological features: "Built as a Valclain compund, converted to a simple locomotive with Walschaert's valve gear in blah, blah, blah").

eledbetter@rypn.org

Erik,

I am as close to the NPs as many and one thing that has never happened is that an nps site has closed or been given away.

For example a trade of sites here in California has long been proposed; having to do with Redwood treed, and it is not happening.

So I say don't hold your breath!

Ted Miles


ted_miles@nps.gov

> Erik,

> I am as close to the NPs as many and one
> thing that has never happened is that an nps
> site has closed or been given away.

Outright sale to the private sector, no. But consult this list of transfers (generally to State governments or other Federal agencies) from the NPS's own Web site. It's rare but it does happen:

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/hisnps/NP ... rparks.htm

FORMER NATIONAL PARK SYSTEM UNITS: AN ANALYSIS
eledbetter@rypn.org

Its interesting to note the common points about all of the transferred parks:

"
• Areas in public use under NPS custody remained in public use with no significant reductions in services under their new custodians.
• Both the NPS and the receiving parties supported the transfers.
• There was no significant public or political opposition to the transfers.
• None of the divested areas would meet current NPS standards for inclusion in the National Park System."

It is feasible that the first three would apply to Steamtown, but would the fourth point apply to it? Has the definition of the urban park (Lowell comes to mind) changes such that it does not meet it? Has an awareness of the reality of what Steamtown is (or best ought to be) clarify that it really is not something the NPS wants to do?

Frankly, I don't think so, but that it has become a whipping boy for all that is bad in government. Too bad because it is not true, particularly when compared the continuous onslaught of lies, blatant coverups, and dodging of responsibility of the current Vulcans-in-charge. Aside from having Steamtown in or out of NPS, we need to have an NPS that is not underfunded due to deliberate attempts to bankrupt the whole system.
I hope this is not too off topic for this board.