Having read the chain below I offer the following.

Reality, Ohio Central has the track to run just about any power out there. We do have some of the largest rail ever made. Size of locomotive is no issue.

Truth, Bob said it when he mentioned the projects sitting on shop floors that will never be finished. Sad but true, this is a problem that us youngsters with have to face.

To Dream, Will we ever see an engine larger than the 3985 or the 1218 on the road? There is enough money in the wrold to do it. There is enough time to do it and there are places where it can be done and where it could run.

Cents or sense....Is there a single large or even small locomotive project out there that has made any right minded banker see dollar signs....no way! True, some of the projects have made a real business out of running steam, but it takes a lot of green to make a little green in this industry, just ask some of the big heads!

The point of all of this? You young guys out there need to step to plate and begin putting dreams into motion. The truth is, none of the engines out there today would be there were it not for the dreamer who put the first hour in as a volunteer thinking to himself...."I wonder if..."

Us young guys have a feild of open oppertunity ahead of us. I see changes in some major RR policy regarding steam. I see bigger steam events than we have ever seen before. I see more restored locomotives than we have ever seen before. I see a very bright light at the end of the tunnel that is not that far away.

So, now that we know how all of you feel about the next big steam project.....Hope to see you all at the next volunteer work session of your favorite project!

Contact your favorite group for times and dates of next volunteer work sessions, they would love the help!

It will happen if we just try a little!

John E. Rimmasch
Ohio Central Steam

www.ocsteam.com

Train Festival 2004

p.s. No our next engine is not the Big Boy


jerimmasch@ohiocentral.com

Mr. Rimmasch has the right idea! My "Comments from a Teenage Railfan" post about a week ago got an excellent response, and this is great to see as well! There's a lot of us in the younger generation just looking for opportunities to get involved.

We must realize that the only way to get these projects off the ground is to volunteer. The Ohio Central gives us what is possibly the best opportunity in the East to do this. I personally can't wait for my opportunity to volunteer there (next week) and I encourage anyone else, especially those my age, to look into it as well.

Once again, thanks John!

Tim Botti
University of Pittsburgh
Mechanical Engineering

tjb231@comcast.net

Regarding John's post above, and the previous thread he references: I appreciate all the things Ohio Central has done, and I agree with his call to arms to the people our age in the hobby...however...the reality is that until railroads (besides OC) change their policies and will at least even consider letting public excursions out on their rails, there will be no more restorations of large steam engines. Nor should there be if there is nowhere to run them.

The bad news just continues to come in re: railroad access: RailAmerica, which owns large chunks of tracks across the country, was one of the few short lines that would allow excursions and had the infrastructure to do so. Now, there is serious talk among their management about raising their insurance requirement to $25 million for excursions. That will price most excurison operators out of the market.

re: John's comment that there will be big changes in excursion policy in the railroad industry: I will believe that when I see it, but if that does happen, I think the CP steam program is the model most railroads will take. CP isn't even remotely interested (I have tried many times) in working with the groups that have traditionally run excursions in the U.S., such as the large NRHS Chapters. Thus, their program will be a closed one, without public excursions, and with no way that anyone that reads this board can work on. Combine that with UP's not running public excursions (with very few exceptions) any more...yes, these are steam programs, but they aren't what interested the past generation and people like me in the hobby.

If anyone can give a more optimistic read on the situation, I would welcome it.

Chris Jacks.

christrainmanNOSPAM@yahoo.com

> Regarding John's post above, and the
> previous thread he references: I appreciate
> all the things Ohio Central has done, and I
> agree with his call to arms to the people
> our age in the hobby...however...the reality
> is that until railroads (besides OC) change
> their policies and will at least even
> consider letting public excursions out on
> their rails, there will be no more
> restorations of large steam engines. Nor
> should there be if there is nowhere to run
> them.

> The bad news just continues to come in re:
> railroad access: RailAmerica, which owns
> large chunks of tracks across the country,
> was one of the few short lines that would
> allow excursions and had the infrastructure
> to do so. Now, there is serious talk among
> their management about raising their
> insurance requirement to $25 million for
> excursions. That will price most excurison
> operators out of the market.

> re: John's comment that there will be big
> changes in excursion policy in the railroad
> industry: I will believe that when I see it,
> but if that does happen, I think the CP
> steam program is the model most railroads
> will take. CP isn't even remotely interested
> (I have tried many times) in working with
> the groups that have traditionally run
> excursions in the U.S., such as the large
> NRHS Chapters. Thus, their program will be a
> closed one, without public excursions, and
> with no way that anyone that reads this
> board can work on. Combine that with UP's
> not running public excursions (with very few
> exceptions) any more...yes, these are steam
> programs, but they aren't what interested
> the past generation and people like me in
> the hobby.

> If anyone can give a more optimistic read on
> the situation, I would welcome it.

> Chris Jacks.

Chris,
If you go to the home page for Milwaukee Road 261, you will see an announcement for a public excursion behind CPR 2816 from Minneapolis to Portal, ND. The equipment will be primarily the Milwaukee Road painted trainset which has operated with #261 over the past years. I think that there will be exceptions to the rule, particularly with the CPR, but the operation has to make some sort of sense, in this case, handling revenue passengers on a (rare) mileage that the locomotive would have to make anyway, enroute "home". The expense of deadheading a locomotive and cars is, in this time, normally prohibitive. I would look to this sort of operation to be part of our "future".

Don C.


http://www.261.com
milw261@sbcglobal.net

Chris;

When you get as old as I am (44-2/3rds) you get kind of an idea that things are cyclical. Why, just 20 odd years ago we were running a CPR engine on CNR tracks; CPR having told us to "keep your toys in your basement".

Now we see the CPR with one fantastic train; something that nobody would have predicted.

Have patience. Work on your skills. Become proficient at machining, welding, wielding an oxy-acetelyne torch, and being shop smart. Read up about anything steam related. Ask questions. Don't assume you know the answers.

Prepare yourself. Because one day, if you keep your eyes and ears open, an opportunity will arise.

John Stewart
Ottawa, Canada.

All the points in that thread and this have ben great: a reall shot in the arm. John makes an important point though --- Ohio Central is far from the only game out there. They are one of the more positive rays of light to be sure --- but there are a bunch of other groups out there that need your help too. Make the effort to learn AND teach; hopefully elders will respect what you know, and you MUST be willing to learn.

The teens, 20's, and 30-somethings out there need to start to give back; in my case I feel like its about time. Others had the foresight, the guts, the cahones if you will, to fight the naysayers and give us the 759's, the 4449's, the 765's, etc. I'm sure that Nelson Blount was ridculed for trying to save steam: now his efforts to save locos have paid off, with groups like Ohio Central (1293, 1551, 1278), Steamtown (2317), NS (1218) and so many others who now or have operated his engines. Sadly, we have lost guys like the Claytor brothers: people like Ross Rowland and Steve Lee are getting on in years. We as a group need to pick up the slack, learn the trades, get dirty, and show the next generation how great this really is. If we don't, a world without steam won't be as far-fetched or unbelievable as some think it currently is.

TJG



Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

> Reality, Ohio Central has the track to run
> just about any power out there. We do have
> some of the largest rail ever made. Size of
> locomotive is no issue.

> Cents or sense....Is there a single large or
> even small locomotive project out there that
> has made any right minded banker see dollar
> signs....no way! True, some of the projects
> have made a real business out of running
> steam, but it takes a lot of green to make a
> little green in this industry, just ask some
> of the big heads.

Does it really matter what, or if, the "next" big locomotive restored to service is? Yes, the Ohio Central System has the track to run any locomotive that any group could bring there; we all owe Jerry Joe a big "thank you" for making that possible. Unfortunately, the green stuff issue makes it very difficult for others to restore and operate their locomotives there. We should all appreciate whatever shows up for an Ohio Central special event--be it an 0-4-0T or a 2-8-4. Enjoy the show while you can, because you never know just how long it will last. God willing, Jerry Joe will be with us for a long, long time--but one really never knows exactly what the future will bring. Case and point: remember how quickly and unexpectedly F. Nelson Blount exited the scene.

What matters most, I believe, is can the railfan/preservation community get behind a theme for the preservation on mainline steam in the United States? What is it's best chance for long range survival? Perhaps the Ohio Central System will build a 10-stall roundhouse that one day will be filled with steaming locomotives; just maybe that's where our nation's memorial to mainline steam will ultimately become. If that happens, GREAT!

Personally, I spent 17-1/2 years of my life trying to make F. Nelson Blount's dream become the living memorial to the Age of Steam railroading a reality. When Steamtown moved to Scranton, there appeared to be some light at the end of the tunnel; for the first time in Steamtown's history, track was available that could take anything in the Steamtown collection. Yes, that includes the Big Boy, too. (For those that don't already know, there was "Big Boy fever" in Scranton when #4012 first arrived in town as many people were excited about seeing it run. A well-qualified steam restorationist even offered his services FOR FREE (just to be able to say he'd rebuilt a Big Boy) to oversee the project. Then reality set in; THE GREEN STUFF ISSUE AGAIN.)

However, the light at the end of the tunnel quickly dimmed for the Steamtown Foundation as much of the public funding that was promised in reality wasn't available and patronage wasn't any better than in Vermont. However, to the credit of the Scrantonians, they didn't (and still haven't) give up on Steamtown. They devised a plan for a national historic site which met a number of objectives including saving the Steamtown collection largely intact, realizing F. Nelson Blount's dream (important to some SF Board members), and economic development for the Scranton area.

In retrospect, from the mainline steam perspective, I think it was a good plan. To satisfy some preservationists who put up a loud squawk at one point (they said locomotives couldn't be operated because it would be consuming the artifacts), it was proposed that the U. S. locomotives become artifacts and the Canadian locomotives used as "consumables" for excursion and interpretive purposes. Really, did it matter which locomotives were under steam as long as they performed to show people what mainline steam was all about? OK, stop and think about it for a moment! What has Canadian steam meant to Steamtown over the years? The Vermont years saw mostly Canadian steam operation and nobody really complained; the SF years in Scranton were all Canadian steam and nobody complained EXCEPT when those same locomotives were lettered LACKAWANNA. In fact, had the NPS chosen the idea of using the Canadian locomotives as their primary operating motive power, they would have had a virtually endless supply if they decided to protect them from the weather (a Butler building with an old-time facade would have sufficed). Let's take a further look: CP 4-6-2 #2317 and CN 2-8-2 #3254 carry on at Steamtown NHS today, years after the NPS took over from SF. Of the Canadian locomotivcs that the NPS either approved the disposal of or disposed of themselves: two are carrying on the mainline steam tradition elsewhere (CP 4-6-2 #1293 and CP 4-6-4 #2816) and two more have a good chance of future steam-ups (CP 4-6-2 #1246 and CN 4-6-2 #5288). Another locomotive, CP 4-6-2 #1278, was traded by SF for #3254 prior to the NPS takeover; that locomotive is tentatively to steam again as well! And let's not forget CN 2-8-2 #3377, either, which was a prime candidate for restoration before the NPS made a parts engine out of it. Yes. folks, Canadian steam was good for Steamtown--and good for the mainline steam concept. It could have kept mainline steam running out of Scranton indefinitely had the NPS chosen to use it over the long run. However, enough railfans/railroad preservations made a stink over Steamtown NHS's Canadian collection that it's been largely disposed of (ironically to others who know its value) and an "American locomotive", B&M 4-6-2 #3713, is in the process of being rebuilt for service.

Today, it probably doesn't matter anyways because the NPS is doing it's best to eliminate mainline excursions all together. So what are many folks supposedly interested in the preservation of mainline steam doing about it? Arguing over which mainline locomotive should be restored next. What will the outcome be? I predict that the Scranton-area politicians and perhaps a few established railroad preservationists working behind the scenes will determine mainline steam's future at Steamtown National Historic Site. With the offices of two U. S. Senators and two U. S. Congressmen weighing in positively on tne matter, we as a railfan/preservationist community have a big and rare opportunity to help the cause.

Does it really matter which mainline engine is next? Let's keep what we have first!



fred.gracebailey@earthlink.net

.I think Mr. Bailey makes some very good sense in saying we should try to band together to lend strength to the effort to keep the mainline steam flame from completely going out.
I STRONGLY disagree that Steamtown is the place we should spend our effort.
The NPS has demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt(steadily declining visitorship,moronic rules/regulations,nearly 15 years and $75 MILLION later not a single American engine restored, a poor K4 that's burned through nearly $1.5 MILLION and is still in a thousand pieces,etc. etc. etc. )that they are completely and totally incapable of doing anything beyond wasting nearly $5 MILLION/Year of taxpayer money.
Just imagine for a minute if one of the competent shops (Ohio Central, Strasburg, TVRM,Omaha) had $ 75 MILLION to spend! How many total rebuilds would they have produced?? A heck of a lot more then ZERO!!!
No, the answer is to get solidly behind the Ohio Central program(start by attending Trainfestival 2004) and encouraging Jerry Joe to continue to expand his empire and steam program.
I am working on an effort to establish a Mainline Steam Foundation as a new 501C3 organization with the sole purpose of raising $20 Million from now senior wealthy steam fans through their wills,so that there is a $ legacy available and dedicated to keeping some mainline power alive and well into the new Century! Seems to me that's the only way we can be assurred of Mainline steams future.

As to Scranton, the only hope there is that the attendance will get so outrageously poor(it's most of the way there already) that the bean counters in DC will sell/lease it into the private sector(with an annual "maintenance" stipend)to salvage some of the $5 MILLION/year they now pore down that rat hole?? Baileys correct in that the "museum" types are well on their way to making Scranton another "stuffed&mounted" mosoleum which will join the ranks of the other similiar railroad museums throughout the nation that struggle to stay open from year to year!
I learned early in my life-if you want to screw something up,just get the Government involved-it works every time!!!

Ross Rowland

.> .
.> .
.
>.,
>..
> .
. .
..> ..
> .
> ..
> .
> ..> .>..

> .
..
> ..
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>.
> .
.


rrowland@weidel.com

> Chris;

> When you get as old as I am (44-2/3rds) you
> get kind of an idea that things are
> cyclical. Why, just 20 odd years ago we were
> running a CPR engine on CNR tracks; CPR
> having told us to "keep your toys in
> your basement".

> Now we see the CPR with one fantastic train;
> something that nobody would have predicted.

> Have patience. Work on your skills. Become
> proficient at machining, welding, wielding
> an oxy-acetelyne torch, and being shop
> smart. Read up about anything steam related.
> Ask questions. Don't assume you know the
> answers.

> Prepare yourself. Because one day, if you
> keep your eyes and ears open, an opportunity
> will arise.

> John Stewart
> Ottawa, Canada.

and when steam was being sent to the scrapper in the '50s,'60sand even as late as the '70s, who would have ever thought we'd see the likes of 765,1225,611,1218,918,1522,844,261,etc runnming again? One certian thing in life, is change.You can sit by and say"it'll NEVER happen" , or keep the dream alive. Thanks to the FWHS,UP,OC, and all of you keeping the dream alive.

LL675@aol.com

> .I think Mr. Bailey makes some very good
> sense in saying we should try to band
> together to lend strength to the effort to
> keep the mainline steam flame from
> completely going out.
> I STRONGLY disagree that Steamtown is the
> place we should spend our effort.
> The NPS has demonstrated beyond any shadow
> of a doubt(steadily declining
> visitorship,moronic rules/regulations,nearly
> 15 years and $75 MILLION later not a single
> American engine restored, a poor K4 that's
> burned through nearly $1.5 MILLION and is
> still in a thousand pieces,etc. etc. etc.
> )that they are completely and totally
> incapable of doing anything beyond wasting
> nearly $5 MILLION/Year of taxpayer money.
> Just imagine for a minute if one of the
> competent shops (Ohio Central, Strasburg,
> TVRM,Omaha) had $ 75 MILLION to spend! How
> many total rebuilds would they have
> produced?? A heck of a lot more then ZERO!!!
> No, the answer is to get solidly behind the
> Ohio Central program(start by attending
> Trainfestival 2004) and encouraging Jerry
> Joe to continue to expand his empire and
> steam program.
> I am working on an effort to establish a
> Mainline Steam Foundation as a new 501C3
> organization with the sole purpose of
> raising $20 Million from now senior wealthy
> steam fans through their wills,so that there
> is a $ legacy available and dedicated to
> keeping some mainline power alive and well
> into the new Century! Seems to me that's the
> only way we can be assurred of Mainline
> steams future.

> As to Scranton, the only hope there is that
> the attendance will get so outrageously
> poor(it's most of the way there already)
> that the bean counters in DC will sell/lease
> it into the private sector(with an annual
> "maintenance" stipend)to salvage
> some of the $5 MILLION/year they now pore
> down that rat hole?? Baileys correct in that
> the "museum" types are well on
> their way to making Scranton another
> "stuffed&mounted" mosoleum
> which will join the ranks of the other
> similiar railroad museums throughout the
> nation that struggle to stay open from year
> to year!
> I learned early in my life-if you want to
> screw something up,just get the Government
> involved-it works every time!!!

> Ross Rowland

> .> .
> .> .
> .
> . .
> ..> ..
> ..
> .
How is it that Steamtown has done so little, and Electric City so much in the same place?

bas1210@comcast.net

I think that they should restore one of the New York Central Mohawks to operation. Here in NY we have no excursion loco to really call our own. No NYC locomotives are still in operation and thanks to an incompetent few people we have no Hudsons or Niagaras anymore (an no Penn Station!). It would be a fitting tribute to one of america's greatest railroads.

-Ed Kelley
Westchester County NY

GTNGRR@aol.com

> I think that they should restore one of the
> New York Central Mohawks to operation. Here
> in NY we have no excursion loco to really
> call our own. No NYC locomotives are still
> in operation and thanks to an incompetent
> few people we have no Hudsons or Niagaras
> anymore (an no Penn Station!). It would be a
> fitting tribute to one of america's greatest
> railroads.

> -Ed Kelley
> Westchester County NY

Great idea, as I like them too. Not to be negative but where you gonna run it. This is the biggest concern to me in all these conversations. Anyone with enough money can restore a locomotive, but finding a place to run it is the biggest problem. Ohio Central and Steam Town can do it, but what we need are more places like that.

My suggestion is folks band together and throw money into buying up some secondary mainlines that become available, and then you have places to run. What good is rebuilding that local park engine along the Santa Fe or other town in Anywhere, USA, and the local railroad prohibits its operation. Put the cart behind the horse...Trackage first, steam second!!!
Just my 3 cents.
Greg Scholl



sales@gregschollvideo.com

Just a question, I thought the work on the K4 was being overseen by the Railroaders Memorial Museum from Altoona, and their contract workers and they were only using Steamtown's facilities. I did not think Steamtown was doing any of the actual work. I have to agree that no matter who is doing the work something is not right with the length of time it is taking. Maybe the engine was a total basket case, but still, I was in High School when it arrived in Scranton and I'm now 4 years out of college! We should be taking bets at Williams Grove which PRR steamer sees fire again first, our 643 or 1361 (my bets are on 643).

PS Thanks Ross for 614, I rode a trip the last year in Hoboken, and I can only say amazing, best wishes in any future projects with steam and/or 614, and thanks for your many years of dedication to steam, big and small.

> .I think Mr. Bailey makes some very good
> sense in saying we should try to band
> together to lend strength to the effort to
> keep the mainline steam flame from
> completely going out.
> I STRONGLY disagree that Steamtown is the
> place we should spend our effort.
> The NPS has demonstrated beyond any shadow
> of a doubt(steadily declining
> visitorship,moronic rules/regulations,nearly
> 15 years and $75 MILLION later not a single
> American engine restored, a poor K4 that's
> burned through nearly $1.5 MILLION and is
> still in a thousand pieces,etc. etc. etc.
> )that they are completely and totally
> incapable of doing anything beyond wasting
> nearly $5 MILLION/Year of taxpayer money.
> Just imagine for a minute if one of the
> competent shops (Ohio Central, Strasburg,
> TVRM,Omaha) had $ 75 MILLION to spend! How
> many total rebuilds would they have
> produced?? A heck of a lot more then ZERO!!!
> No, the answer is to get solidly behind the
> Ohio Central program(start by attending
> Trainfestival 2004) and encouraging Jerry
> Joe to continue to expand his empire and
> steam program.
> I am working on an effort to establish a
> Mainline Steam Foundation as a new 501C3
> organization with the sole purpose of
> raising $20 Million from now senior wealthy
> steam fans through their wills,so that there
> is a $ legacy available and dedicated to
> keeping some mainline power alive and well
> into the new Century! Seems to me that's the
> only way we can be assurred of Mainline
> steams future.

> As to Scranton, the only hope there is that
> the attendance will get so outrageously
> poor(it's most of the way there already)
> that the bean counters in DC will sell/lease
> it into the private sector(with an annual
> "maintenance" stipend)to salvage
> some of the $5 MILLION/year they now pore
> down that rat hole?? Baileys correct in that
> the "museum" types are well on
> their way to making Scranton another
> "stuffed&mounted" mosoleum
> which will join the ranks of the other
> similiar railroad museums throughout the
> nation that struggle to stay open from year
> to year!
> I learned early in my life-if you want to
> screw something up,just get the Government
> involved-it works every time!!!

> Ross Rowland

> .> .
> .> .
> .
> . .
> ..> ..
> ..
> .


PRR 643's Offical Web Site
prr643@hotmail.com

> Just a question, I thought the work on the
> K4 was being overseen by the Railroaders
> Memorial Museum from Altoona, and their
> contract workers and they were only using
> Steamtown's facilities.

That is correct. The K4 is not a Steamtown NHS project, just a tenant renating space in the shop.

eledbetter@rypn.org

> not a single
> American engine restored

Not to pick nits, but didn't Steamtown restore BLW #26 to operation?

belpaire@aol.com