Any news on Rowlands Six Flags over Scranton Big Adventure?

Ap65X23tuy@aol.com

> Any news on Rowlands Six Flags over Scranton
> Big Adventure?

Against my better judgement, I will treat this as a serious inquiry.

Mr. Ross Rowland has outlined what he thinks ought to be done with Steamtown NHS here and elsewhere, but his thoughts were in the nature of suggestions or thought-experiments. There is no actual plan backed by Mr. Rowland or anyone else that I know of to alter the current management arrangements for Steamtown NHS.

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eledbetter@rypn.org

I thank Mr. Ledbetter for his comments/guidlines.
He is correct in that I have stated that in my opinion the only chance Steamtown has of reversing the continual decline in visitorship is to have it operated by some entity that understands the family entertainment business and can operate/manage/promote the place so that it effectively competes for that business.
To expect the NPS to be able to transform itself into that role is totally unrealistic.

I think that with the current budget problems facing all aspects of the Federal operations there is a reasonable chance that the Dep't. of the Interior will cull out the worst performing parks(highest cost/visitor) so that thier recources can be devoted to the better ones. Should I be correct in this then S'town would certainly be one of the candidates for culling. I am told that it is one of the worst(in the top 5) parks in the entire system??
I further believe that the only way the NPS will find any serious interest from potential QUALIFIED operators is if they're willing to lease it for a reasonably long term(at least 15 yrs.) with an annual "maintenance" fee payed to the new operator to intice the kind of effort it would take to turn it around.
The current math is quite instructive. This year(with a severly reduced excursion program) they'll probably end up with slightly under 100,000 paid visitors. The place costs approx. $5 MILLION/year to run (largely do to a ridiculously large salaried year round staff) so the cost/visitor is about $50/head. I'm told that Yellowstone National Park has a cost/visitor of approx.$ 3/head, and Yellowstone among other popular parks has capacity problems(turning people away) that need $ to address.

I further feel that as long as the NPS runs the facility the long decline will only get worse, and that the handwriting is now clearly on the wall that it will soon join the other struggling static railroad museums across the country that fight the good fight scrapping up just enough $$ to stay open year to year.

Realistically however, it could well take years for the NPS to get to this point as the Federal Gov't. doesn't do anything quickly and Federal institutions take on a life of thier own and are VERY difficult to change.

Therefore, I believe we steam lovers are far better off devoting our energies to helping the Ohio Central System program succeed. The O/C is the antithesis of Scranton. It's owned/operated by an individual who loves the steam heritage story as much as any of us, fully realizes and embraces the fact that the live product is, when you come right down to it, a family entertainment product and to have a future must successfully compete against all the other opportunities available to the consumer. Has amply demonstrated that he's willing to put his $$$ where his mouth is AND has now given us an opportunity as railfans to come together to help Trainfestival 2004 be the opening act of what I'm convinced will quickly become THE annual event celebrating our national steam/railroad heritage.

I can clearly see not too far down the track (maybe edition 3or4) Trainfestival as a national event with 4/6visiting mainline engines attending, each pulling a sold-out excursion,several from the West Coast, a 40/50 acre site crammed full of family fun things to do( live steamers, steam tractor pulls, mule pulls, farmer contests, huge railroad flea market, hot air baloon rides etc. etc.) a 4 day attendance of 150,000-200,000 people, a Fortune 20 national sponsor and extensive TV coverage.

BUT- big BUT- we've got to crawl/walk then run. Therefore I respectfully urge all foamers,gerfs,steamheads,and yes even dismal(as in diesel) fans to come together to make this first Trainfestival a rousing success so that Mr. Jacobson is encouraged to quickly grow it towards its potential. If you can attend-do so, if you can't come but can buy a ticket(s) and have your ticket(s) given to a worthy local kid who otherwise could not come-do so, if you can contribute your labor before/during/after (I've signed up for 2 weeks) do so, if you can promote/ support(attendance or $$ contribution) within your circle of friends-do so. We can all do something to help make this a home run!!

I can also see where the toughest task facing the organizers of future editions is going to be selecting WHO gets invited from the list of locomotives/equipment owners who want to attend. It'll happen sooner then later!

I look forward to seeing you there.

Ross Rowland

rrowland@weidel.com

On a lighter note, don't sell it to Six Flags...they'll just convert all of the steam locomotives to diesel-hydraulic like they have at their current parks!

Southeastern Railway Museum
gapower97@yahoo.com

> On a lighter note, don't sell it to Six
> Flags...they'll just convert all of the
> steam locomotives to diesel-hydraulic like
> they have at their current parks!

It has been reported recently on the Park Trains Group on Yahoo that the Harpur locomotive at Astroworld is still running as a steam locomotive every other Sunday and on holidays.

The two Patout sugar locomotives at Six Flags over Texas in Arlington are still steam as well.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james@survivingworldsteam.com

Mr. Rowland;

The only fly in the ointment with supporting the Ohio Central, is that the continued success falls with one man. This is the same problem with Steamtown waaay back when - Mr. Blount was unfortunately killed in an accident (as you, but others reading this may not know) and Steamtown faltered, and, some would say, never recovered.

I certainly give my support, both financial and in time, to steam operations. I will see you at the OC at their Trainfest. I wish Mr. Jacobsen (sp?) a continued long and happy life, and good health.

Say what you like about government run organizations; certainly, there are problems (I am involved as a volunteer at one), but one thing is for sure - they survive by paper, not by the whims of one person.

No answer is perfect; but I wonder, really wonder, what would have happened to the Steamtown equipment if the NPS had not stepped in. I have been "before" and "after", and I can say that the difference is remarkable; give me Steamtown as it stands today, as compared to the diseased hulk it was.

As a side note - my wife has been to quite a few steam operations in North America and Europe; her vote is for Steamtown as being the most impressive by far of the lot. No, she is not a railway-oriented person, but she has her eyes open and is interested.

John Stewart
Ottawa, Canada.



A government owned Shay.

I think it would be risky selling a place like Steamtown to a Six Flags or Disney like group, becouse it may turn in to a circus. It almost did when NPS came in with the ider of a "Turntable Stage" I think Jim Boyd, Railfan Former Editor said it best about that turntable "The sheer timeless drama of a live steam locomotive on a real turntableis far more educational and worthwhile then a bunch of Smoky Bear rangers and a troupeof dancing girls on a rotating stage with tracks in the middle"

I am not saying that this plain would not work, yet today the only problem that has been pointed out is the lack of excursions. Steamtown is not the only place without steam at this time, and it is a tough time to be a steam operater. And as the time goes on it may not get any easier, however we are lucky to have people today that take the Challenge head on.

But besides the excursions the museum is a great place and tells the story of American railroading vary well, and shows what it looked like in a busy yard in the 1940's and that may be just as important as the main line excursions.

Steamtowns Potential is great and if you don't think they are doing something right, write them a letter, becouse it is not owned by a private group, its America's museum and we have a say about what happens there just as much as the next guy.

-Justin Franz


qcmrs18@yahoo.com

I know Steamtown well. It is not what it could be and certinally not what it once was. A place where high hopes were visioned. I am not sure of its budget but I am sure if another museum had its budget the equipment would be perfect. It is plain to see to anybody if they look around that the budget Steamtown has is spent on the wrong things. After all it is our money they are spending. Wood coaches, wood snow plows, wood D&H flanger! WOW talk about the 1800's!! what an era. This equipment and much of the steel is slowly rotting away before our eyes while new buildings are going up to house the heavy equipment not the rolling stock. Next time you are there ask them why is this? They poored tax money into a train station they don't own while again the rolling stock rots. Now I know for a fact that they really could have saved the rotting rolling stock if they wanted. I don't think they have the mind to. Last time I was there I was on South Washington Street. There are these concrete markers maybe 10 feet tall with the proud letters DL&W on them, they are crumbling to pieces. The building across the street Chamberlin has the same markers that are preserved, Why is this? Is not Steamtown the NATIONAL Historic Site? I am not flaming or what ever you all call it. It is the plain truth, right out in front of everybody. I would be ashamed to work there but I am even more furious that they are getting away with the creature comforts and ignoring the true meaning of why Steamtown exisits.
It is a great place but in the wrong hands. I am not talking about the NPS I am talking about the folks who make the decisions. It has a nice museum a nice round house and eye popping shops. The shops are different from any place I have seen. The potential is fantastic. You who have been there know this to. Why is the DL&W steamer still a mess? It should be the pride of the park in the museum with mirrors under it. But it is not. They do have nice patrol vehicles, nice government vehicles and loaders and fork lifts and from what I heard of nice offices. What is wrong here? they should have nice rolling stock shouldn't they? Why don't they? It is run by folks who are obviously interested in other things rather than railroading. I think they have a mission statement, does anyone know it? Does it match what they have done there in the past 16 years or more or even less? I kind of don't think so. How could they get away with that it is our money, our tax money. Does not the bigger bosses of the folks who run the place see what is going on? I do, please go see for yourself and ask them why, why is everything that does not have to do with railroading new or in great shape and the railroading stuff is slowly rotting about to dissapear into a pile of garbage? I don't like to see this it is our heritage. What can we do about this any thoughts? I don't want a great place like Steamtown to go away. It is a treasure. I talked with people who work there and I honestly can not blame them. They do what they are told to do and what they get paid for. The restoring of a signal tower? Yes good idea but it is made of something stronger than wood. It could stand around for another decade without falling all apart. I won't be fooled by tactics about they can't get the money or they are waiting for an increase, come on you have been around too long for me too fall for that. We need to save Steamtown from the folks who are not really sure what they are doing. Go see go ask. Steamtown is a wonderful historic site please treat it with the respect it deserves.

> As a side note - my wife has been to quite a
> few steam operations in North America and
> Europe; her vote is for Steamtown as being
> the most impressive by far of the lot. No,
> she is not a railway-oriented person, but
> she has her eyes open and is interested.
> John Stewart
> Ottawa, Canada.

The Steamtown MUSEUM may be impressive, but I'm sorry, but I don't know how anyone can rate a Steamtown excursion "the most impressive".

My experience on a Steamtown trip in Oct. 2003:
-mildly verbally abusive car-hosts
-no concession car (or consessions on the train - period, other than drinking water)
-no photo run-by
-alot of wasted time during the trip
-diesel helpers for the climb out of Scranton, which makes the statement: "The steam engine can't handle the job."

Any one who has ever experienced one of Ross's 614 trips, the U.P. program, the "late" N.S. program with 611 etc. or some of the privatly operated engines like 261 or 765,
would hardly rate the kind of trip put on at Scranton last fall as being better.
It certainly has the potential to be great, but not the way it was run last October.
I'm not making any specific "flames" here.
This is my observation of the picture over-all.
I know it takes alot of work and planning to pull off these events. I do this for a living, too.
I want to see Steamtown grow to the full potential which it has, but is currently not allowed to achieve.

Steve,

Youn humbly do not mention Reading Northern. While it's been a long time since they have run steam, they always have a runby, and are quite railfan freindly.

If only Andy wanted to run Steamtown trips. Too bad he's busy running a thriving business...

> The Steamtown MUSEUM may be impressive, but
> I'm sorry, but I don't know how anyone can
> rate a Steamtown excursion "the most
> impressive".

> My experience on a Steamtown trip in Oct.
> 2003:
> -mildly verbally abusive car-hosts
> -no concession car (or consessions on the
> train - period, other than drinking water)
> -no photo run-by
> -alot of wasted time during the trip
> -diesel helpers for the climb out of
> Scranton, which makes the statement:
> "The steam engine can't handle the
> job."

> Any one who has ever experienced one of
> Ross's 614 trips, the U.P. program, the
> "late" N.S. program with 611 etc.
> or some of the privatly operated engines
> like 261 or 765,
> would hardly rate the kind of trip put on at
> Scranton last fall as being better.
> It certainly has the potential to be great,
> but not the way it was run last October.
> I'm not making any specific
> "flames" here.
> This is my observation of the picture
> over-all.
> I know it takes alot of work and planning to
> pull off these events. I do this for a
> living, too.
> I want to see Steamtown grow to the full
> potential which it has, but is currently not
> allowed to achieve.


Al's Rail Photos.
acp19809@yahoo.com

> The Steamtown MUSEUM may be impressive, but
> I'm sorry, but I don't know how anyone can
> rate a Steamtown excursion "the most
> impressive".

> My experience on a Steamtown trip in Oct.
> 2003:
> -mildly verbally abusive car-hosts
> -no concession car (or consessions on the
> train - period, other than drinking water)
> -no photo run-by
> -alot of wasted time during the trip
> -diesel helpers for the climb out of
> Scranton, which makes the statement:
> "The steam engine can't handle the
> job."

> Any one who has ever experienced one of
> Ross's 614 trips, the U.P. program, the
> "late" N.S. program with 611 etc.
> or some of the privatly operated engines
> like 261 or 765,
> would hardly rate the kind of trip put on at
> Scranton last fall as being better.
> It certainly has the potential to be great,
> but not the way it was run last October.
> I'm not making any specific
> "flames" here.
> This is my observation of the picture
> over-all.
> I know it takes alot of work and planning to
> pull off these events. I do this for a
> living, too.
> I want to see Steamtown grow to the full
> potential which it has, but is currently not
> allowed to achieve.

Steve, as a practioner you know some of the issues: Here's a few more and some thoughts: Parts may seem confrontational but I don't intend it that way.

Mildly Abusive Carhosts- What does that mean? What happened? Was it one or multiple individuals?

Sometimes, people get to zealous, but trust me, Steamtown sees every kind of personality.

My favorite story is the guy who jumped from the cab deck of the Baldwin 26 onto the roundhouse floor (in front of his 3 year old- good thing junior didn't follow suit). I understand the landing put his knees behind his ears.

I can tell you the T&E folks work very hard to be diplomatic. Customer service is incorporated into their annual training. If you receive bad treatment-alert the Conductor-some individuals may not like it- but Rule 941 makes him/her the boss. They will promptly attend to concerns that the rules are followed-including the one that requires passengers to be treated cordially. Additionally, most of the Interpretive Rangers are very dedicated and will also attend to your concerns.

Other Steamers- My first thought-they sit idle. The 614 is a state of the art roller bearing on roller bearing machine. 765, 614 also modern. The 3254 and 2317 are a little more aged. Still, just east of Nay Aug is a 1.8% grade and with 6 or more heavyweights-you get good stack talk. Steamtown's audience is broader than the trips you described and 30 is flying to many of them.

Concessions- This is something of a government imposed nightmare. My understanding is anybody handling cash for the federal government must have a fidelity bond. This is red tape imposed on management thats a true pain.

Diesel Helpers- I visited Port Clinton last September and had a nice ride without ANY Steam. I'm getting old. I'd like to see the '02 and the 425 again before I get glacoma or something.

A lot of times 1522 and 4449 have had diesels and I think the 765 guys have a box to run diesels from the cab.The helpers were a result of the 1997 analomink trip, which had problems due to leaves and rain. I know there was a major concern about about another 1 AM arrival.

Wasted Time-Again, need specifics.

Run-bys- You need a guarantee that nobody slips, trips or drips. This is a liability driven issue. Think "solicitor" saying I "advise" against it. A solictor in this case isn't someone procuring vice its worse- a lawyer working for the federal government-enough said?

In Summary, I'm not going to defend the failures of the "responsible parties". There's no excuse that the 26 sits idle since 99, The 2317 didn't have its wheels reprofiled, et al, ad nauseum.

However Steamtown is not an amusement park. It can be better, more entertaining, vital and dynamic. However the Six Flags idea is inconsistent with its mission. Individuals proposing it demonstrate a profound lack of understanding about a national historic site, the NPS etc.



superheater62@yahoo.com

Has the NPS ever done what has been proposed above? Have any NPS sites ever been closed and/or completely turned over to a private entity? (I understand many of the NPS sites maintain contracts with private companies for maintenance, food service, etc.)

Have any NPS sites ever closed due to lack of attendance?

SJHussar@aol.com

> Has the NPS ever done what has been proposed
> above? Have any NPS sites ever been closed
> and/or completely turned over to a private
> entity? (I understand many of the NPS sites
> maintain contracts with private companies
> for maintenance, food service, etc.)

> Have any NPS sites ever closed due to lack
> of attendance?

I posted this link in an earlier thread. Here is an analysis of NPS units that left the sytyem and what became of them.



Former National Parks
eledbetter@rypn.org

>The restoring of a
> signal tower? Yes good idea but it is made
> of something stronger than wood. It could
> stand around for another decade without
> falling all apart.

The really sad part about this signal tower is that it is not on Steamtown property! The rail authority and the railroad both told them it was not on their property, but Steamtown went ahead anyway! A new survey was done showing it is on railroad property. Another $200,000 down the drain.

Back int he late 1980's when the trains were running up to Kingsley, it was about the most impressive thing on rails. No run-bys, but a train of heavywieghts being lifted up steep hills, through a long tunnel and over two wonderful bridges in breathtaking scenery was a sight to behold.

That may have been the best-ever regular steam ride in the east, in the preservation era.

Rob

trains@robertjohndavis.com