This picture disturbed me. Although I am glad one of my favorite Shays (Feather River Railway/Hutchinson Lumber #3) is in operation again, I had not realized the cosmetic altering that Cass had done on her. They took a beautiful California Shay and "Cass-ized" it, making it look like one of their engines from West Virginia, putting on their ugly spark-arresting diamond stacks, giving her a new number, and converting her to burn coal. I wish the engine was still in California operating, but the PSRMA or the San Diego Railroad Museum left it outside and had not run it since the early 90s. Cass is a suitable home for it, just too far from California where it belongs. I saw the Western Maryland #6 shay still retains its WM paint job, number, and straight stack, I just wish that they would have kept the #3 in its original condition (even the coal conversion was OK) instead of dressing it up as a WV logging shay, it is an important part of California history and was one of the largest Shays built by Lima. I am going to order a book that came out on the Feather River Shays, and I have the Sunday River "Gears in the Woods" video featuring the #2 and it is excellent, have had it for many years. When the #3 (or #11) was first restored at Cass she still had her straight stack.

That's my rant on one of my favorite engines.

Happy Rails,
Ed Kelley
formerly of Northern California


GTNGRR@aol.com

Frankly, I think the whole operation that Cass carries out is amazing -- that in this day and age people are still willing to commit their time, money, and lives to keep these amazing logging engines alive. I think instead of being negative towards how they may have "changed" the engine, we should be more thankful that they're actually operating it -- instead of letting it rot in some museum!

Dave

> This picture disturbed me. Although I am
> glad one of my favorite Shays (Feather River
> Railway/Hutchinson Lumber #3) is in
> operation again, I had not realized the
> cosmetic altering that Cass had done on her.
> They took a beautiful California Shay and
> "Cass-ized" it, making it look
> like one of their engines from West
> Virginia, putting on their ugly
> spark-arresting diamond stacks, giving her a
> new number, and converting her to burn coal.
> I wish the engine was still in California
> operating, but the PSRMA or the San Diego
> Railroad Museum left it outside and had not
> run it since the early 90s. Cass is a
> suitable home for it, just too far from
> California where it belongs. I saw the
> Western Maryland #6 shay still retains its
> WM paint job, number, and straight stack, I
> just wish that they would have kept the #3
> in its original condition (even the coal
> conversion was OK) instead of dressing it up
> as a WV logging shay, it is an important
> part of California history and was one of
> the largest Shays built by Lima. I am going
> to order a book that came out on the Feather
> River Shays, and I have the Sunday River
> "Gears in the Woods" video
> featuring the #2 and it is excellent, have
> had it for many years. When the #3 (or #11)
> was first restored at Cass she still had her
> straight stack.

> That's my rant on one of my favorite
> engines.

> Happy Rails,
> Ed Kelley
> formerly of Northern California


The Wilmington and Western Railroad
Steamtrain84@aol.com

> I think instead of being negative towards how > they may have "changed" the engine, we should
> be more thankful that they're actually
> operating it -- instead of letting it rot in
> some museum!

Agreed. As the historical railroad preservation community moves forward, hopefully with some sort of national policy initiative(s), we must remember that sometimes we must bite our lip. A restored engine operating at Cass is a thousand times better than one rotting in California.

When I worked for the Gulf & Mississippi, and we were thinking about running a steam powered excursion, several of the Company's officers were not at all thrilled about the project. In fact, the tendancy of railroad enthusiasts to always be negative was an argument used to oppose the steam engine trips.

"Suppose we are late or have a mechanical, or one of the coaches is too hot...and the media gets ahold of a 'complainer'? You know good and well what will be in the headline," said one of the marketing managers. There was an hour's worth of discussion, and the whole project almost got cancelled.

In successful policy initiatives, proponents are all or nearly all overtly unanimous. Any gripes or complaints are left behind, stowed well out of sight, when it comes time to make the case in public.

Our reputation for being complainers is a tough nut to crack.

Just some frank and candid thoughts based on experience on "both sides of the fence."

Dave writes: "instead of letting it rot in some museum!"

This locomotive was not rotting at Campo. It was run many times by the volunteers, including me. When it was sold, it was in operating condition. We had a series of bad managers who got us into financial trouble. The selling of the locomotive and removal of a California steam locmotive was nothing short of a crime. However, I am glad it went to a good home, and, I'm glad we threw out the old Board and elected a new, carring board. Things are really loking up now for the Pacific Southwest Railway Museum at Campo, CA>


Pacific Southwest Railway Museum
Jim@psrm.org

When I wrote earlier this morning, I had not a clue as to the real behind-the-scenes history of this gorgeous locomotive. Sadly, I have never been to Cass but think the outstanding photo that accompanied the original post is a testimonial to what the Cass folks can do. And from another post I learn that the railroad museum in Claifornia that sold the locomotive seems to be in better hands these days.

One thing about those of us seriously active in historic railroad equipment preservation and operations -- we have great pride in our skills and accomplishments. I just wish there was some way to harness this expertise and energy and turn some of it towards developing a national policy initiative that would yield serious benefits.



amiller@rtms-movietrains.com

For the record, Cass Scenic Railway is part of the state-owned state park. You should also see how nicely they've preserved the entire town of Cass! -- Ray

> When I wrote earlier this morning, I had not
> a clue as to the real behind-the-scenes
> history of this gorgeous locomotive. Sadly,
> I have never been to Cass but think the
> outstanding photo that accompanied the
> original post is a testimonial to what the
> Cass folks can do. And from another post I
> learn that the railroad museum in Claifornia
> that sold the locomotive seems to be in
> better hands these days.

> One thing about those of us seriously active
> in historic railroad equipment preservation
> and operations -- we have great pride in our
> skills and accomplishments. I just wish
> there was some way to harness this expertise
> and energy and turn some of it towards
> developing a national policy initiative that
> would yield serious benefits.


raymondreter@aol.com

I just wish
> there was some way to harness this expertise
> and energy and turn some of it towards
> developing a national policy initiative that
> would yield serious benefits.

Art, you are furthering the cause just by continuing to write about it. Please keep it up.


SJHussar@aol.com

Ed,

Any changes made by Cass can be easily reversed if the engine returns to museum status. In the mean time, those "ugly spark-arresting diamond stacks" as you call them are doing what they are supposed to, cutting down on the fire risk!

The reason Cass converted from oil to coal is simply an issue of economics, all their other engines are coal burners and having a separate oil supply system, especially at today's prices, simply makes no sense.

The big WM #6 has not received a spark arrestor, but it never runs above Whittaker, except for special occasions. I may be wrong, but I don't think it ever gets worked hard enough to throw much in the way of cinders anyway.

I'd much rather go to Cass and see the #11 working hard, letting thousands of people experience the thrill of steam, than to go to a museum and see it sitting out back, rusting away becuase they don't have the funding and staff to do anything with it. Three cheers to Cass and the Mt. Rainier Scenic and all the other operating steam railroads.

trainrider47@aol.com

> For the record, Cass Scenic Railway is part
> of the state-owned state park. You should
> also see how nicely they've preserved the
> entire town of Cass! -- Ray

I would love to get to Cass! Perhaps later this summer.

But how is it that Cass seems to rate generally good reviews while Steamtown seems to not be able to please a good percentage of railroad preservationists? May I ask for leave from my RyPN colleagues to deviate a bit from the original topic of this thread.

When a TVRM group visited Steamtown back in mid-January (-5 F temps were tough on us folks from "way down South"), the entire SNHS staff pulled out all stops to present a day-long symposium on all aspects to railroad history preservation, interpretation, and education programs. Mark Ray organized the "World Tour" and it included stops at the RR Museum of PA, Strasburg, the B&O Museum, and the John W. Brown, the wonderfully restored Liberty Ship operating out of Baltimore.

Back to Steamtown...Glenn Smith was on the point in putting together the program. The seminars and tours were intense -- like getting an overview of a Master's degree Museum Science program in a day. The visit has had a profound positive effect on all of those who participated. The SNHS staff effort has prompted numerous additional inquiries and studies by many of the TVRM tour participants. Additional interpretive projects are underway, and some are nearing completion! TVRM already is a better place because of the SNHS staff effort.

A thought. Perhaps we should place additional focus on SNHS and the Park Service's strategic strengths -- world-renowned excellence in interpretation, education, and public access. There is much to be done if we are to elevate in the eyes of the general public the importance of railroad preservation. Appreciating AND actively supporting the continued development SNHS interpretive (i.e., story-telling) programs and the availablity of SNHS staff might be a good place to start.


amiller@rtms-movietrains.com

We are starting to experience industrial history as economic development / tourism, but not on the scale of recognition enjoyed by house museums, for example. I don't know if it is cultural, ingrained esthetics, ignorance, or a feeling of shame by succeeding generations to the harsh realities which were daily working life for our forefathers.

Steamtown and Cass are both economic development projects, but they have very different personalities. Many of us experienced TRAIN conventions at both venues. Perhaps the difference between federal and state bureaucratic weight, or the urban VS rural character of the sites was paramount....or just the individuals involved.

Cass doesn't seem to take its primary identity as a museum to the extent that Steamtown does. Their operating program seems much more vital, but less authentic in detail. Getting to Scranton is easy compared to finding Cass. Riding a day trip behind steam working hard is easy at Cass but not as easy in Scranton.

First class shop work is being done at both, although the Scranton facilities are much larger and more complete. I don't know how staff size or productivity compares, but it would be interesting to find out.

Do we expect more from Steamtown in terms of "professional standards" than from Cass? Perhaps some dissatisfaction with Steamtown in the industry may stem from their relatively high expressed mission / standards VS our experienced product as visitors? Should Steamtown reconsider their focus and be a less abashed tourist railroad given the compromises inherent in the intrusion of an outlet mall, reconstructed structures, etc? Could interpretation be enhanced by focussing on providing a vital operating experience even if it forces academic and professional curatorial standards into a relatively subservient position?

Would the opposite be true at Cass? How about CATS? East Broad Top?

There are good guys doing good work at all these places. As Mr Rowlands suggests, in the private sector it is easier to define and control the mission, personality, and execution of programming than in the public sector. It isn't as easy to find the resources to operate a huge entity, however, unless one has public funding.

Public / private partnerships can either provide opportunities to find the best of both worlds (Georgetown Loop a decade ago, CATS now) or create a disfunctional quagmire of conflicting business philosophies wherein not much can get done(Georgetown Loop at present, CATS a few years back). Some public money comes tied up with so many knots unravelling them can make a project untenable for private sector entities (LIRR 39).

Since the USA is culturally unlike most other countries, perhaps our best models can be created through considering and comparing the positive and negative aspects of our own players rather than just wishing our public were as historically conscious and supportive as the British.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

This is show business/tourism, nothing to do with historical preservation. The messages in this thread reflect the desire of big boys to play with big toys.

The "conversion" is far more than cosmetic. The fabric of the oil burner will not be kept.

If there were any means, or interest, in cataloging which locomotives were really worthy of museum preservation, we would find that there are many locomotives which can justifiably by reconditioned for operational exhibit. It always involves serious historical damage. I have no strong opinions about FRRy #3 itself.

Sad that so many from this group have the knee-jerk reaction, "run it, don't let it sit in a museum [actually preserved]."

> This is show business/tourism, nothing to do
> with historical preservation. The messages
> in this thread reflect the desire of big
> boys to play with big toys.

Hardly, Cass acquired the #11 to work heavy trains to Bald Knob without the need to double head every train. Economics, not playing with toys was the motivation. And yes, tourism is the reason Cass exists, but without it, the town would be gone and there would be precious little preservation.

> The "conversion" is far more than
> cosmetic. The fabric of the oil burner will
> not be kept.

So a bunch of pipe and fire brick that the railroads had to renew or replace many times over the years is "historic?"

> Sad that so many from this group have the
> knee-jerk reaction, "run it, don't let
> it sit in a museum [actually
> preserved]."

If the choice is operation and maintenance by skilled professionals versus rusting away out of doors in an under-funded museum, you betcha I say run it! Keeping a boiler hot is the best way to preserve it. The wearing parts of a steam engine were designed to be replaced every major shopping. Most steam engines are a bit like grandpa's axe, they may be x number of years old, but a good percentage of the components are not.

There will always be a conflict between preservation and interpretation. The best way to interpret steam railroading is to run steam trains in an appropriate setting. I'm not saying that is the case with Cass, but simply preserving an artifact (and not very well at that) does little to advance the understanding of history.



trainrider47@aol.com

Was she a true "Pacific Coast Shay" according to specifications?

-Alan Levy

AlanL759@aol.com

Jim,

Can you post here or start another thread about the Campo, Museum. I am glad to hear the news about a new and better Board of Directors. Glad you weathered a storm!

The museum has several wooden passenger cars that are something special. any news there?


ted_miles@nps.gov

> Was she a true "Pacific Coast
> Shay" according to specifications?

No, the 11 is significantly larger than a Pacific Coast Shay and does not have the unique design features of the PC Shay (such as cylinders that are only attached to the frame, and not to both frame and side of firebox).

Chris H.

holombo@pacbell.net