Got this via the HBDTRAINS list, may be of interest for anyone who has ordered tickets....

Also at http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... b8c97832d0

Probably a lesson or two here...
---------------------------------------------------

DonPevsner

Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Merritt Island, Florida Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:14 pm Post subject: HOBOKEN-BINGHAMTON RAILFAN EXCURSION: SEPTEMBER 25,2004

(1)Coach sales thus far are a disaster: 42 seats!

(2)I will CANCEL THE TRIP on JULY 5 if I have not reached break-even
of 462 seats by that date.

(3)I am not a masochist, so refuse to go on the hook for a AMTRAK
$8,940 (10%) cancellation penalty. I will escape with my financial
skin intact, losing only a Ticketweb $250 startup fee.

(4)Too bad that beer, cigarettes and lottery tickets are of more
appeal than seats on the first Erie fantrip to Binghamton in 38 years.

(5)Either SUPPORT THE TRIP by July 5, or to hell with it.


http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=374
trains@robertjohndavis.com

> Got this via the HBDTRAINS list, may be of
> interest for anyone who has ordered
> tickets....

> Also at
> http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... b8c97832d0

> Probably a lesson or two here...
>
> ---------------------------------------------------

> DonPevsner

> Joined: 17 Mar 2004
> Posts: 31
> Location: Merritt Island, Florida Posted:
> Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:14 pm Post subject:
> HOBOKEN-BINGHAMTON RAILFAN EXCURSION:
> SEPTEMBER 25,2004

> (1)Coach sales thus far are a disaster: 42
> seats!

> (2)I will CANCEL THE TRIP on JULY 5 if I
> have not reached break-even
> of 462 seats by that date.

> (3)I am not a masochist, so refuse to go on
> the hook for a AMTRAK
> $8,940 (10%) cancellation penalty. I will
> escape with my financial
> skin intact, losing only a Ticketweb $250
> startup fee.

> (4)Too bad that beer, cigarettes and lottery
> tickets are of more
> appeal than seats on the first Erie fantrip
> to Binghamton in 38 years.

> (5)Either SUPPORT THE TRIP by July 5, or to
> hell with it.
Seems to me that this was doomed from the get-go! To think that there were enough people willing to pay that fare to ride that equipment to Binghamton was foolhardy to say the least.

At his price it might have been possible to get a train load IF the train was pulled by 614 AND there was an overnight at Binghamton so it wasn't such a death march schedule!

No suprise at all to me that only 40some seats sold!

Ross Rowland

rrowland@weidel.com

The day also conflicts with a Jewish Holiday.

Joshua

joshua@NOSPAMjoshuakblay.com

The tone of Mr. Pevsner's message is surely not temperate or fitting for wide spread public distribution. The real issue is that he most likely didn't have it all figured out and now be is about to blow an NS approval which is hard to come by and is scurrying around to find someone to take the "heat".

How many people want to rattle in an Amfleet at 30 MPH to Binghamton and back in one day?

As that famous commentator on the radio is know to say, "And now for the rest of the story".

v-scarpitti@att.net

I couldn't agree with Mr Levin more. The tone of the message alone would be enough to make me think twice about the trp, if I were going. Stands in stark contrast the the publicity put for by the likes of Mr Levin, Ross Rowland and the Ohio Central et all...

There is a way to do things and a way not to do things...

Dave Crosby

bing@epix.net

We have enough internal problems in doing what we all enjoy in our little community, without these kind of irrational public outbursts. Just look at the math; he needed to sell +/- 500 tickets to break even. Based upon the penalty to Amtrak of 10% of Amtrak's alleged costs was slightly less than 10K or $=/- $100,000 for the rail portion of the trip or $ 200/ticket to break even. Compare that to what the Harrisburg NRHS charges for their excellent excursion program.

Something does not add up!

Did he have any experience doing this or was it a get rich quick scheme? No one gets rich quick doing this.........You got to love it first and then hope you don't loose your arse.

The last thing we need is a repeat of the Music Man. Hopefully he did not leave a trail of distruction, ill-will, and bad feelings at either NS or Amtrak.



v-scarpitti@att.net

> We have enough internal problems in doing
> what we all enjoy in our little community,
> without these kind of irrational public
> outbursts. Just look at the math; he needed
> to sell +/- 500 tickets to break even. Based
> upon the penalty to Amtrak of 10% of
> Amtrak's alleged costs was slightly less
> than 10K or $=/- $100,000 for the rail
> portion of the trip or $ 200/ticket to break
> even. Compare that to what the Harrisburg
> NRHS charges for their excellent excursion
> program.

> Something does not add up!

> Did he have any experience doing this or was
> it a get rich quick scheme? No one gets rich
> quick doing this.........You got to love it
> first and then hope you don't loose your
> arse.

> The last thing we need is a repeat of the
> Music Man. Hopefully he did not leave a
> trail of distruction, ill-will, and bad
> feelings at either NS or Amtrak.

I questioned costs, if he had shopped around for another carrier to do this (MTA, NJ Transit, M&E, etc.) over on Railrond.net and got flamed for it.(And the guy that flamed me a month ago posted comments similar to mine today-)

The HICO trips 30 years ago were a better value, even considering the cost of a room at a Holiday Inn or other motel.


edm5970@earthlink.net

> Amfleet at 30 MPH

That says it all. I might have bought a ticket otherwise.

Bennett, you HAVE to run a trip out of Hoboken one of these days!

nkloudon@hotmail.com

> That says it all. I might have bought a
> ticket otherwise.

> Bennett, you HAVE to run a trip out of
> Hoboken one of these days!

Perhaps with a certain E unit on the point, and certain coaches/diner in the train :) Best things come to those who wait!

Joshua

> Got this via the HBDTRAINS list, may be of
> interest for anyone who has ordered
> tickets....

The same forum tonight claims that the individual responsible has cancelled the trip. Bennett, I suggest you give ol' 4022 a quick Erie repaint and then call NS and ask for the slot....... <;-D

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Mr. Levins comments regarding the effect of this poorly thought through aborted excursion on NS and Amtrak are both on point and important.

As he says it's difficult at best for an accomplished operator who brings a successful track record to the table(i.e. Mr. Levins Juniatta Terminal Co.) to gain permission to operate trips on non-Amtrak lines, made probably even more difficult when unknowledgeable entities use political or economic muscle to force permission to be granted for an excursion that was doomed from the start as being totally uneconomic and unappealing to the vast majority of the marketplace!

Let's hope that the folks at NS&Amtrak know there's a world of difference between those who know what's up and those who don't???

In a way, it's a blessing that this proposed trip aborted early due to lack of response from the marketplace as it had the very real potential of turning into a classic(think NRHS-1988-convention trips) death march due to track conditions, length, and the operating realities of today on the Southern Tier.

IMHO it's demise is a huge blessing,and as Mr. Levin says, let's hope not too much damage was done at NS&Amtrak!!

Ross Rowland

rrowland@weidel.com

Ross (or someone else),

I remember there were glitches at the 1988 convention, but I cannot recall what happened.

What was the deal?

-Alan Levy

AlanL759@aol.com

> What was the deal?

I suppose I should let the victims of the catastrophe tell it better than I can, but right about the very end of the Convention, some wag was passing out a home-made, computer-printed bumper sticker saying "I SURVIVED The Garden State 1988 NRHS Convention". I had one on my car for about two years--I spent those exact same ten days going from Atlantic City to Savannah, Georgia and back up the Chesapeake Bay photographing lighthouses by day and night, backtracking as the sun changed and set.

In short, the mainline trips were beset with major operational problems, beginning with a sloppy boarding-pass system and continuing with screwed-up or late service stops; cancelled runbys; trainsets with inadequate dwell time overnight to service properly; trips that were scheduled to start at 7 or 8 am and continued until 8-9 pm and actually returned past midnight(hence the "death march" remarks); a load of bad coal in the tender of 765; and even the ignominy of a week-old Susquehanna B40-8 broadsiding a giant dump truck at a crossing while leading one of the excursions.

In addition, many worthy side trips offered were scrubbed for lack of participation(the draw of mainline steam was too great), and some of the few that did run, such as a mileage junket on the Winchester & Western NJ, went off flawlessly, albeit underappreciated.

A final trip with 765 to Harrisburg from northern New Jersey fell so far behind with delays that the decision was made to turn the train back at Reading--which, of course, was a major problem for 21 passengers planning to connect with Amtrak westbound at Harrisburg (including the editors of Trains and Passenger Train Journal). Those 21 were finally put in taxis to Harrisburg at the personal expense of one of the convention officials. (As I recall, the train arrived in Reading westbound for coal and water at about the time it should have been departing Harrisburg eastbound.)

It has been said that 1988 was the last attempt at a truly major NRHS convention. In many folks' opinions, the Tri-State Chapter drove themselves bankrupt attempting to outdo the Roanoke 1987 convention (which, among other things, featured 611 on a passenger train and 1218 on a coal train marching side by side for miles on the Roanoke-Christianburg main line). The 1989 convention in Asheville, NC, by comparison, was a much more subdued affair--only one trip a day, with a 2-day trip to Asheville and a two-day run back to Alexandria via different routes and steamers.


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

And don't forget that they sold more tickets for first class and "deluxe" class than there were seats because in the words of one of the Tri-State muckty-mucks "people with that much money aren't too smart anyway"!

Oh and the speaker at the banquet choose not to speak either...

P.S. In fairness, the current people running Tri-State are not the '88 crew and they have done a wonderful job saving and reviving this NRHS Chapter.

For what it's worth, I attended BOTH the 1987 Roanoke NRHS convention and the 1988 Garden State NRHS convention. I enjoyed both thoroughly.

The 1988 New Jersey convention was apparently an attempt to offer a smorgasbord of railroad activities to a diverse group for a week. I signed-up for a variety of activities, including the O&W bus tour side-trip.

For those of us who went to "Garden State in '88" to enjoy ourselves, and meet some very nice people on the trips and in the communities we visited, the 1988 convention was fun. For those who went to "chalk-up" rare mileage and, perhaps, did not plan for "downtime" I understand it was a bit disappointing. -- Ray

> I suppose I should let the victims of the
> catastrophe tell it better than I can, but
> right about the very end of the Convention,
> some wag was passing out a home-made,
> computer-printed bumper sticker saying
> "I SURVIVED The Garden State 1988 NRHS
> Convention". I had one on my car for
> about two years--I spent those exact same
> ten days going from Atlantic City to
> Savannah, Georgia and back up the Chesapeake
> Bay photographing lighthouses by day and
> night, backtracking as the sun changed and
> set.

> In short, the mainline trips were beset with
> major operational problems, beginning with a
> sloppy boarding-pass system and continuing
> with screwed-up or late service stops;
> cancelled runbys; trainsets with inadequate
> dwell time overnight to service properly;
> trips that were scheduled to start at 7 or 8
> am and continued until 8-9 pm and actually
> returned past midnight(hence the "death
> march" remarks); a load of bad coal in
> the tender of 765; and even the ignominy of
> a week-old Susquehanna B40-8 broadsiding a
> giant dump truck at a crossing while leading
> one of the excursions.

> In addition, many worthy side trips offered
> were scrubbed for lack of participation(the
> draw of mainline steam was too great), and
> some of the few that did run, such as a
> mileage junket on the Winchester &
> Western NJ, went off flawlessly, albeit
> underappreciated.

> A final trip with 765 to Harrisburg from
> northern New Jersey fell so far behind with
> delays that the decision was made to turn
> the train back at Reading--which, of course,
> was a major problem for 21 passengers
> planning to connect with Amtrak westbound at
> Harrisburg (including the editors of Trains
> and Passenger Train Journal). Those 21 were
> finally put in taxis to Harrisburg at the
> personal expense of one of the convention
> officials. (As I recall, the train arrived
> in Reading westbound for coal and water at
> about the time it should have been departing
> Harrisburg eastbound.)

> It has been said that 1988 was the last
> attempt at a truly major NRHS convention. In
> many folks' opinions, the Tri-State Chapter
> drove themselves bankrupt attempting to
> outdo the Roanoke 1987 convention (which,
> among other things, featured 611 on a
> passenger train and 1218 on a coal train
> marching side by side for miles on the
> Roanoke-Christianburg main line). The 1989
> convention in Asheville, NC, by comparison,
> was a much more subdued affair--only one
> trip a day, with a 2-day trip to Asheville
> and a two-day run back to Alexandria via
> different routes and steamers.


raymondreter@aol.com